Christian business owners . . .

[C0ckney]

Then answer my question please. How do YOU know these things?

oh i see. i can play that game too. how does anyone know anything?

[Kidlicious]

oh i see. i can play that game too. how does anyone know anything?

Logic isn't a game. You said that a person needs to believe in the Trinity to understand the Bible. I asked you if you mean that they have to have the Holy Spirit. You quoted a Bible verse that says that. You're worse than BK.

[Aeson]

Sounds like you need a better dictionary.

Given that you just posted a definition that is perfectly analogous to one of the definitions I already posted, then you would need a better one too.

Honest question: Are you high or something?

either one follows Jesus or Joseph Smith and company

it is mutually exclusive

You've certainly simplified your wrongness.

You are simply wrong Sava. You don't have a clue as to what Mormons actually believe.

The name of the LDS Church is... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They believe Jesus is a member of the godhead (God the Father, Jesus Christ son of God, and the Holy Spirit). They believe in immaculate conception. That Jesus is saviour. That Jesus was resurrected and will return again. They are baptised "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". They take the sacrament as body of Christ. They pray "in the name of Jesus Christ". They accept the Old and New Testament as holy scripture. The Book of Mormon is about Christ visiting the new world and is literally proclaimed as another testament of Jesus Christ.

The definition you posted (which is one of the definitions I already posted) definitely does apply to Mormons.

[C0ckney]

Logic isn't a game. You said that a person needs to believe in the Trinity to understand the Bible. I asked you if you mean that they have to have the Holy Spirit? You quoted a Bible verse that says that. You're worse than BK.

you see this is what i get for engaging with you; no good deed goes unpunished i suppose. i actually said that the trinity is essential for understanding the christian god, but you are too stupid to understand a simple sentence. it's no wonder that christianity goes right over your head, just like communism did before it.

[Kidlicious]

you see this is what i get for engaging with you; no good deed goes unpunished i suppose. i actually said that the trinity is essential for understanding the christian god, but you are too stupid to understand a simple sentence. it's no wonder that christianity goes right over your head, just like communism did before it.

If you don't understand the Bible, and you don't have the Holy Spirit, and you won't use the dictionary, then how do you know what a Christian is?

[C0ckney]

no sorry, you've more than used up your quota of serious responses for this month with your ridiculous nonsense and inability to read.

[Aeson]

I'm not even arguing that at all.

So you accept the truth of the following statement (my first statement which you took issue with)?

"Mormons are Christian by the dictionary definition of the term." - Aeson

[Sava]

Given that you just posted a definition that is perfectly analogous to one of the definitions I already posted, then you would need a better one too.

Okay. So we've confirmed that the problem lies somewhere with your understanding of the definition.

Honest question: Are you high or something?

Not at the time of that post. But regardless, I'm confident stoned Sava would still (apparently) have better reading comprehension than you.

You are simply wrong Sava. You don't have a clue as to what Mormons actually believe.

I certainly can't speak for every member of that church. But the part where Heber C. Kimball calls Christians all "whoremasters"... seems to contradict the premise that Mormon teachings follow those of Christ.

It's like you are arguing that Karl Marx was a capitalist.

Am I missing out on something when I read all these quotes? Is Mormon literature really like 99% "Jesus is awesome. Christians are cool." instead of the whole "whoremasters" bit?

Maybe it is as if I saw the 1927 New York Yankees on July 9, 1927 when they got beat 19-7 by the Detroit Tigers. I need more context, right? Mormon prophets are only like 1-2% "Christians are whoremasters", right?

The name of the LDS Church is... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

China's official name is the "People's Republic of China".

They believe Jesus is a member of the godhead (God the Father, Jesus Christ son of God, and the Holy Spirit). They believe in immaculate conception. That Jesus is saviour. That Jesus was resurrected and will return again. They are baptised "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". They take the sacrament as body of Christ. They pray "in the name of Jesus Christ". They accept the Old and New Testament as holy scripture. The Book of Mormon is about Christ visiting the new world and is literally proclaimed as another testament of Jesus Christ.

The definition you posted (which is one of the definitions I already posted) definitely does apply to Mormons.

Christianity contains the OT... basically, the entirety of Judaism... yet it is a different religion.

I don't know what comparing the similarities accomplishes. This discussion is about the differences between the two religions.

[Kidlicious]

no sorry, you've more than used up your quota of serious responses for this month with your ridiculous nonsense and inability to read.

"10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

Are you saying that you read that and understand it?

""""

[Aeson]

Which is why the dictionary is God here? I'm amused that the one citing an authority without thinking through why this is their chosen authority is the one who's capable of thinking for himself. I know why I follow the Catholic church - because they were there first and I think there's substantial historical evidence in favor of this assertion.

Jesus was there before the Constantine. His own stated requirements for salvation were rather plain and simple. Something organized religion later took care of.

(This is the claim Mormons would make to claim Catholics are not true Christians. It's too bad there's no Mormon posters here, that would be a much more fun debate since then I could laugh at both sides, as the LDS Church became almost exactly what it was originally purported to be trying to fix.)

Even so, on this question - multiple Christian churches have the same answer even as they disagree on other finer points. This to me is corroboration.

Sliding scales, arbitrary delimiters. Just come out and say it ... "my version of the fairy tale is better than their version of the fairy tale, so that makes me a better Jesus freak than them". Because that's obviously what you mean.

Why do you believe that the dictionary is the best source for this? The dictionary doesn't even claim this.

Because my statement was explicitly about the dictionary definition of the term. Obviously the dictionary definition of the term is important to the validity of that statement.

"Mormons are Christian by the dictionary definition of the term."

So you use a dictionary to prove/disprove that statement.

The reason I posted though is because it's an easy troll. "The dictionary definition of the term Christian applies to Mormons" ... followed by a pompous hypocritical Christians tripping all over themselves to argue against a simple fact.

[Sava]

the MW entry uses "profess"

technically speaking, a strict reading of that phrase allows for people dishonestly "professing"

so liars can be Christian but Mormons can't

[Kidlicious]

Even the owner is a troll

[Aeson]

Okay. So we've confirmed that the problem lies somewhere with your understanding of the definition.

Nope. The problem is you simply don't understand what you are talking about.

Not at the time of that post. But regardless, I'm confident stoned Sava would still (apparently) have better reading comprehension than you.

You're on a < 5yo level of discussion here. Seriously. You need to read into the LDS Church history and doctrine before trying to argue about it. You are obviously and profoundly ignorant of what you are talking about.

I certainly can't speak for every member of that church. But the part where Heber C. Kimball calls Christians all "whoremasters"... seems to contradict the premise that Mormon teachings follow those of Christ.

You just don't understand what he is talking about. He is using "Christians" to refer to contemporary organized religions outside the LDS Church that profess to follow Christ. It's just a variation on the argument you and BK and Imran and cockney is making. He is saying he and LDS Church members are the real Christians, those others that claim to be Christian are not. That's what all those quotes are.

If you had any clue about LDS Church doctrine you'd understand how blatantly obvious that meaning is.

It's like you are arguing that Karl Marx was a capitalist.

Nope. It's like saying that Karl Marx was a socialist.

Am I missing out on something when I read all these quotes?

Yes, you are misreading them badly.

Is Mormon literature really like 99% "Jesus is awesome.

+1%.

Christians are cool."

This is a separate issue from view on Christ. Back then there were armed clashes between groups of Mormons and other groups. So the rhetoric is understandably vitriolic from both sides. (And that has persisted to some extent even till now.)

Nowdays it's much different though. If you understand LDS Doctrine about the afterlife it becomes pretty clear what Mormons feel about non-believers, unrepentant sinners, and those of other faiths. The LDS believe there are basically 3 levels of the afterlife, and one "Eternal Darkness" (something like complete absense of Christ's Light ... which should tell you something about what they feel is important ... and it's not Joseph Smith) that up to 5 people in history will qualify for. The other 3 levels are progressively "better", with the lowest of them being much better than this mortal life. The higher levels being for those who basically want to do more with their afterlife to serve Christ and other's more.

Needless to say, if any of the religions out there happen to be right, I'd hope it's the Mormons.

instead of the whole "whoremasters" bit?

You clearly don't understand what you quoted.

It's the core of the Joseph Smith story and LDS Church doctrine that he had become disenchanted with contemporary organized religion, that those religions in his and the LDS Church's later view had twisted the original meaning of Christ's teachings. Joseph Semith claimed the godhead appeared to him after he had prayed about it, and told him to reconstitute Christ's church as it had originally been.

All those quotes aren't saying Christ's teachings are bad ... or that there's anything wrong with being a Christian. They are saying contemporary followers of organized religions that claim to be Christian were actually not following Christ's teachings. It's just the same thing you and BK are saying about how your view on the fairy tale is right, and their's is wrong.

Christianity contains the OT... basically, the entirety of Judaism... yet it is a different religion.

Quite a different thing as Jews don't accept Christ as saviour. Mormons do.

I don't know what comparing the similarities accomplishes. This discussion is about the differences between the two religions.

You posted a definition of Christian "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ" ... what you quoted are examples of how the LDS Church focuses on the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you had any clue as to what is actually taught in the LDS Church, you'd know just how ridiculous it is to claim that Mormons don't profess belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[Aeson]

the MW entry uses "profess"

technically speaking, a strict reading of that phrase allows for people dishonestly "professing"

so liars can be Christian but Mormons can't

Um... you're just ridiculously stupid. Mormons profess to follow the teachings of Christ. As you said, even if they're lying it still applies.

[Sava]

Professing to Mormonism cancels that out.

Try to follow.