what happened to the großrossiya thread

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I suggest humanity to wake-up, think for a second and ask itself - what the f*ck am I doing? Because we are going exactly to the point where we were before and it seems we haven't learn't anything from the lessons of history as always. But this time we are going to make our last mistake.

Tell me, answer this simple question:
If Capitalism is such a perfect way for humanity, what would happen, when BILLIONS of Chinese and Indian people will reach the consumption rates of the Western society?

And this is where they are going to and going pretty fast. In any way - that is their goal - to improve the living standards of their citizens to the levels of the western countries. And this is perfectly right goal! Why should they live in poverty, if you are drowning in luxury? They work hard, their economy is growing every year, their living standards improve year by year.
And all that demands more and more and more resources. Right?
So, what would happen to the planet, if BILLIONS would have all the living standards you have now in Germany or in US? A big house for any family, few cars in garage,etc, etc.
Is our planet have enough resources for let's say three BILLIONS people who have the same living standards as modern 350 million Americans?

OF COURSE NOT!

Therefor the one who have such standards now will either kill the competitors to preserve their (Western) way of life, which automatically means fascism (and fascist propaganda you call your "free western media") OR the whole humanity should seriously reconsider the untouchables of Capitalism and society of consumption as the only and proper way for the development of human civilization. And the only possible way there is Communism, modernized and cleansed from its past mistakes, because the fascist way will lead to a death of entire human race for sure. 100% guaranteed.

I disagree here, it is actually perfectly possible for 10bn+ people to live up to US/European standard of living, the only thing that is required is reasonable management of resources. We are already technologically capable of it, and we will only be more so in the time to come.

Issue is, that we are not having any and current world leadership, in principle western, lead by US (EU is just as bad for the most part some countries better others even worse?!? ), is just destroying rather than building. WWIII may also be an outcome that we will see over next 20 years, hope not, but current signals are getting worse by the year.

[Proteus_MST]

I suggest humanity to wake-up, think for a second and ask itself - what the f*ck am I doing? Because we are going exactly to the point where we were before and it seems we haven't learn't anything from the lessons of history as always. But this time we are going to make our last mistake.

Tell me, answer this simple question:
If Capitalism is such a perfect way for humanity, what would happen, when BILLIONS of Chinese and Indian people will reach the consumption rates of the Western society?

And this is where they are going to and going pretty fast. In any way - that is their goal - to improve the living standards of their citizens to the levels of the western countries. And this is perfectly right goal! Why should they live in poverty, if you are drowning in luxury? They work hard, their economy is growing every year, their living standards improve year by year.
And all that demands more and more and more resources. Right?
So, what would happen to the planet, if BILLIONS would have all the living standards you have now in Germany or in US? A big house for any family, few cars in garage,etc, etc.
Is our planet have enough resources for let's say three BILLIONS people who have the same living standards as modern 350 million Americans?

OF COURSE NOT!

Therefor the one who have such standards now will either kill the competitors to preserve their (Western) way of life, which automatically means fascism (and fascist propaganda you call your "free western media") OR the whole humanity should seriously reconsider the untouchables of Capitalism and society of consumption as the only and proper way for the development of human civilization. And the only possible way there is Communism, modernized and cleansed from its past mistakes, because the fascist way will lead to a death of entire human race for sure. 100% guaranteed.

In many points I agree with you (which, as we know, doesn´t happen often ) just not in one ... and that is with regardas to communism.

I don´t see how communism can be purged from the failures of its countless of iterations before.
Even in the best case it seems to lead to a 3 class society ...
those who are high ranking members of "The Party" (and get access to various luxuries and preferential treatment) ...
those who are friends with high ranking members of "The Party" (and therefore have their friends in the high ranking party positions get them luxuries/preferential treatment) ...
and finally we have all the rest of the citizens (who get none of these amendments)

Then we have multiple year plans ... who are generally decided by those in the upper echelons of the party and, as the real life has shown, bear ther great danger that those, who have to decide on them, have lost the contact to those who are occupied in the field ... and there is noone who dares to tell the upper echelons how unrfealistic their plans are (as an example I should mention Soyuz 1)
Also the danger is there that, due to this state wide long term planning, the flexibility is missing, to quickly react to emergencies (for example droughts that cause famines).

Finally the communist system (due to the points I mentioned) fails to motivate the ordinary people to do things out of the ordinary ... they are pressed into a system where everyone has his place and it is not possible to climb up the social ladder by doing extremly good work.
Something that was very apparent in the technological development of the eastern vs. western block during the cold war.

Also the danger is there that someone like a Stalin II or Mao II would gain power ... although this, I have to admit, can be adverted by designing the system in a way, that the Prime Minister / President only has limited power (and no way to gain more of it).

So, while I generally agree that over short or long the system has to be changed ... and that the world cannot afford that all countries on the world gain access to western standards of luxuries (unless we gain a level of innovation before that, in which we get rid of our wasteful ways to produce energy and gain mobility), communism IMHO is no good alternative.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Russian communism was not the only version out there, right. We had our own in ex-Yu, and so far from what I can see it was the peak of civilized life for about 20 years, until the war. A communist type of society with genuine democracy, is also possible, but extremely unlikely at this point. Commies blew it, repeatedly (with the exception of China which is unique), so there goes this system until a long time in the future, with likely a different branding.

The issue in society is the selfish-outlier, those people who are ready to destroy society for their own benefit. Communism of early 20th century was ill equipped to deal with them, the pressures put on Russia at the time with constant war (WWI, civil war) just made sure that most ruthless among the original founders will come on top, so that was that, then. In a more peaceful environment (Nordics) a better version of the same has come about, for the most part it is in place even today.

That "society be damned, as long as I am king" kind of people are not that rare, I'd guess even as many as 2-3 in a 100 in general, but they tend to rule to roost, and if they are not contained they will subjugate the rest to them. It is easy to meet them, and they have an advantage when you are on the opposite side, as they select an optimum route to "victory" without consideration for the wider system. As you get closer to the leadership positions in society/politics/business, there are much more heavily concentrated, average intelligence or capability, but their propensity to roll over everyone and anyone to propel themselves gives them an edge over "ordinary" capable people. (this should also be taken into account with new surveillance powers which are concentrating historically unseen power for a tiny minority who have access to the full breadth of the information).

Democracy, with the culturally accepted rules is the best way to deal with them so far, and economically you need the state to keep them in check, yet this world is actually slowly going away. EU is fully undemocratic, and US democracy is slowly crumbling away.

Either way, it's not like we do not have much more advanced societies already in place. Replicating what the Swiss have would suffice as far as I am concerned in terms of governance, it is far more realistic (than another attempt at communism), already in place, the only problem that the rest of the civilized world (Nordics excepted) is neither interested nor looking towards replicating social systems which work better than is already in their own backyard, so the discussion is merely theoretical and in practice the powers that currently control the socio-economic (+political) landscape will continue to propel themselves while undermining the society which made us all prosperous together.

We only need to take a look into how EU is dealing with its own internal problems post 2007, or the US which is looking forward to the Donald presidency. In the middle of all this western media cannot pass a day not to complain about Putin, while at the same time our governments are funding the forces tearing the middle east apart. It's the worst it has been since WWII, and the outlook is negative.

On the other hand, if we could get our act together there is more than enough resources on this planet for everyone to live as Americans today actually, but we can try that in another thread. The problem is mainly socio-political, energy and tech have already been solved to support 10bn+ people with a high standard of living.

[Proteus_MST]

My condolences to the relatives of those 224 people who lost their lives in the russain airplane today, btw.,

[giblets]

All photos/links are 18+, NSFW

This link seems to be the biggest compilation of pictures i can find fast http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=749_1399286176

It was not exactly like you described, but it was close.

I'm not sure what exactly has happened, but this woman? (i guess) seems to be raped and then burned.
https://compliancecampaign.files.wor...5/odessa-2.jpg

I see lots of pictures of people whose clothes have been burned, maybe this person's pants or skirt were made of flammable materials.

And this pregnant? woman was strangled
http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-cont...05/Crop_12.jpg

Could just be fat, and I don't know how you would determine that that dead person was strangled. I'm not sure what the red arrow is supposed to be pointing to.

And here is one of the videos with a voice alledged to that murder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvnLsshOJ18&hd=1
At 0:16 there is a woman's shout "Help me!", then a shriek, then a strangled "help me!" at 0:23 and 0:26. And a comment from a mob "knock her off so she'll not shout" at 0:28 Then very faint woman shrieks, another comment from a woman in a mob "we hear a woman's shriek from an unknown place, someone hysterically cries "help!"" Some more very faint shrieks. And then ukrainian flag appears in a window and a mob cheers.

I'm not surprised people were crying "help" when they were in a burning building. Also, I don't see why someone, after setting a building on fire, would climb to the top of the building and fly a flag instead of leaving the building. The person flying the Ukrainian flag could have been trapped for all I know.

Also, there were people who were killed and then burned (a body with a burned face and upper body on a stone stairs, with completely undamaged pants).
http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-cont...1_original.jpg

I don't think having pants that survived the fire is proof they were murdered before they were burned.

People were shot (first link) etc.

I don't know how you could conclude from a grainy photograph that a head injury is actually bullet wound.

http://www.drivebyplanet.com/2014/05...of-terror.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/05/odessas-fire-examined

[Serb]

In many points I agree with you (which, as we know, doesn´t happen often ) just not in one ... and that is with regardas to communism.

I don´t see how communism can be purged from the failures of its countless of iterations before.
Even in the best case it seems to lead to a 3 class society ...
those who are high ranking members of "The Party" (and get access to various luxuries and preferential treatment) ...
those who are friends with high ranking members of "The Party" (and therefore have their friends in the high ranking party positions get them luxuries/preferential treatment) ...
and finally we have all the rest of the citizens (who get none of these amendments)

Then we have multiple year plans ... who are generally decided by those in the upper echelons of the party and, as the real life has shown, bear ther great danger that those, who have to decide on them, have lost the contact to those who are occupied in the field ... and there is noone who dares to tell the upper echelons how unrfealistic their plans are (as an example I should mention Soyuz 1)
Also the danger is there that, due to this state wide long term planning, the flexibility is missing, to quickly react to emergencies (for example droughts that cause famines).

Finally the communist system (due to the points I mentioned) fails to motivate the ordinary people to do things out of the ordinary ... they are pressed into a system where everyone has his place and it is not possible to climb up the social ladder by doing extremly good work.
Something that was very apparent in the technological development of the eastern vs. western block during the cold war.

Also the danger is there that someone like a Stalin II or Mao II would gain power ... although this, I have to admit, can be adverted by designing the system in a way, that the Prime Minister / President only has limited power (and no way to gain more of it).

So, while I generally agree that over short or long the system has to be changed ... and that the world cannot afford that all countries on the world gain access to western standards of luxuries (unless we gain a level of innovation before that, in which we get rid of our wasteful ways to produce energy and gain mobility), communism IMHO is no good alternative.

Communism has nothing to do with the planned economy.

You actually have no personal experience with the Soviet socialism system. I have. And tell you what - even with all its drawbacks, it was still WAY more JUST society, then a Capitalistic one.
The people were different. They have different ideals and goals, something different in their minds, than just to worship the golden calf of all mighty dollar.
You wanna save humanity from the suicide? Change the humans. That is the only way. And the bullsh!t about human nature being constant is nothing more than just a bullsh!t.

But, since the most of you still prefer to do the things like we did for eons - the end is inevitable, 'cause now humanity have enough weapons to permanently solve the human question.
And what makes us closer to the edge is that one side thinks it can get away in case of surprise attack. Idiots. And that side is pretty much doomed to lose its "excepf*ckingtionability", if it will not go to war, 'cause otherwise the other emerging power will surpass it in all aspects including military pretty soon. And the first side has no other way to prevent it (cause it's basically a bankrupt and its economy is just a one huge bubble), but to attack until it's too late for it. That is a classic WW1 and WW2 scenario. And I am not talking about Russia as the second power.


And just in case, if you still didn't get it - that World war is already going and intensifies. When the nuclear sh!t starts to hit the fan is only a matter of time.

[Bereta_Eder]

It's not even about US in general. Capitalism (and therefore Imperialism) is the problem. It's a dead end for humanity.
There is the law of uneven development, and the first two World wars was a perfect proof of that law. Now we are at WW3 pre-hot stage. Because it's a f*cking law of history - you can run from it, but you can't hide.
The big sh!t is coming. Probably the last sh!t. And perhaps that's for the best, because humans have failed.
The greed and idiocy rule this world now.
So, f*ck it!
Bring it on, motherf*ckers! (Yanks, I mean).
Let's finish it.

I single out the US because it's a dumb country with dumb fat ass citizens completely surrended to their enslavement and corporate-ocracy.
They have no immune system.
They are nazi germany.

But yes, that's why the previous system was better.
Even though the west gone on in full war mode to protect the corporations and was exploiting its colonies with unseen brutality in order to fund all that, the USSR was standing and was vigilent.

Now, with no opposing awe (this is rectified though, because as a living breathing organism humanity fights for its survival) the slavery of free markets the accumulation of capital the complete errosion of democracy and the social state, the imperalistic american led wars that kill millions, plumet humanity to a catastroph.

I always laugh at the simplistic bojos who say: hey! now we'll all trade and be happy together!

It won't happen b!tches. The bloodlust of a fundamentality inhumane sytem will start eating its own leg when there's nothing else to devour.

That's why humanity is rising up again. To put a stop to that. And it's working.

[PLATO]

Serb, Ellestar, and Onodera...Just wanted to drop in and say Sorry for the loss of your countrymen today in that terrible plane crash.

I still think Russia's policies are stupid, aggressive, and doomed to failure...but for today, in the spirit of humanity, you have my condolences. It is my deepest hope that none of your family or friends were involved.

[giblets]

My condolences to the families of the 3 Ukrainians who died in the plane crash

[Dinner]

Do you see, Paik?
He honestly believes in the sh!t. And his is just one of majority.
Humanity is doomed. And Orwell was a genius!

Lavrov, or what ever the foreign minister's name is, was the one crying about Syria slipping into a proxy war yesterday. Putin should have looked before he leaped and now that you have stuck your foot in the bear trap you are pretty much stuck. If Russia pulls out then Assad will fall sooner or later but if it stays they will be stuck in a proxy war you really cannot afford in both blood and treasure. Do I believe Putin has screwed up here? Oh, yes, absolutely and big time. He thought he could play the macho man while in reality the west just gave him enough rope to hang himself with.

[Dinner]

My condolences to the relatives of those 224 people who lost their lives in the russain airplane today, btw.,

Yeah, it sucks that there was some sort of mechanical problem on the plane. I hear ISIS tried to claim it was them but both Russian and Egyptian authorities are saying mechanical trouble.

[Dinner]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution

Wrt the sequence of events at Maidan the wiki has it all well documented and it had to be locked because Kremlin trolls kept trying to vandalize and falsify the wiki. Anyone who is interested can read the factual report there. Hint: Russian propaganda isn't even remotely close to the truth just like Russia's claims that it didn't shoot down that airliner don't even remotely square with the facts.

[Dinner]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34692140

The "peace talks" called for by the Russian dictator Putin seem to have stalled over a fundamental issue (that Assad must go and regime officials must face trial for war crimes). The US announced a $100 billion aid package for the moderate opposition with Saudi Arabia promising the same amount. Other gulf states and Turkey are also pinyin up smaller aid packages. There is little doubt that the aid will mainly consist of weapons, munitions, and advisers though a not insignificant share will continue to be humanitarian aid.

It is doubtful either Russia or Iran can match such resources thought they do benefit from their puppet regime having access to the Syrian dictator's state apparatus. Things are going to get more ugly relatively soon.

[giblets]

That's like $300 for every person in the US. Maybe we should just let Syria be a Russian puppet. They can do wonders for Syria like they did with Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc.

[giblets]

Wait, I checked the news and it's actually $100 MILLION. Dinner made a small typo. Never mind, I don't think thirty cents is a high price to pay to free a country from Russian imperialism.