Exit Polls Suggest Syriza Has Won Greek Election

[pchang]

Interestingly enough, Oerdin, in US terms, is very anti-austerity practices. Was pro Obama's stimulus. I wonder if his Arab racism is simply climbing up the Mediterranean.

Or maybe because the US was not bound by international treaty from stimulus policies and was not in danger of defaulting on any debt.

[Dinner]

Interestingly enough, Oerdin, in US terms, is very anti-austerity practices. Was pro Obama's stimulus. I wonder if his Arab racism is simply climbing up the Mediterranean.

The difference is the US has absolutely no problem borrowing money and people so badly want to lend it money they are willing to do it even at net negative interest rates. Greece doesn't have that luxury.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Greece doesn't, but the EU does.

In this case US is EU and GM is Greece.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Heck, there is a reason that Obama is pushing so hard for the EU to negotiate with Greece. He realizes it for the national security issue it is. I'm sure that even though they are doing bad economically, Russia would be more than willing to help out Greece a little bit. Having a NATO country having warm feelings towards Russia is something that Obama sees as an issue, even if Germany doesn't. US pressure does still mean something, regardless of how intransigent Germany wants to be.

[Fake Boris]

It's like people posting in this thread have yet to realize the debt crisis doesn't exist and is the consequence of the worst monetary system ever.

[N35t0r]

Greeks can compare Argentina 5 years after default to themselves and what they will find out is that unemployment was back to 6-8% from 25%+, poverty in the society has therefore drastically reduced, etc.

Yeah, the easiest way to get unemployment and poverty down is like we did, by altering the data behind the statistics

[Fake Boris]

besides, syriza clearly wants to combat corruption/ simplify legal framework and tax the rich, detax the poor.

While I share the sentiment, something must be said of "tax the rich, detax the poor".

The problem is you can't legislate against people using their wealth. If the wealth is there, people will find a way to use it to further their own and class interests. It's like price control. The automatic outcome of price control is a black market.

Social-democracy and redistribution are false solutions. Redistribution takes the problem for granted. The real objective is distribution, i.e. equality before redistribution is even needed.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well if you believe Greek unemployment is really only 25%, I have a bridge to sell you .

Using the same methodology Croatia has only 17%, while reality is closer to 22-23% range, but it is the new "EU" standard, we used to report higher numbers before we joined in two years ago.

In any case you used to have IIRC around 28% in 2001 immediately after the default, which in 5 years went to about 8%. Greeks had 6% and now they have 25%.

This is the price of the EU "medicine".

[Dinner]

The reality is the reason unemployment t is so high is because their economies are so unproductive and inefficient. Their government procurement process is just an excuse for graft, whole sectors of the economy remain government owned monopolies which are illegal to compete with, regulations are a nightmare, costs are sky high while productivity is in the toilet. They need massive structural reforms in order to be competitive and they aren't doing that. Instead the government wants to make all of those things worse.

That is why they richly deserve to get kicked out once they default and it is coming. If the Germans don't act then all of the other PIIGS will want the same treatment and Germany can't afford that so financially it has to draw the line here.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

There is no question that Greece was run like a third world country while at the same time, they had A credit rating all the way until 2009. They were hit with a triple hammer of credit squeeze killing the private sector, inability to devaluate the debt through exchange rate mechanisms and dismantling of the state mandated by the EU. Who was going to lift them out of the crisis, destroyed private sector, dismantled government or control of the monetary policy that they lost once they joined the EU?

In 2008 they had 6% unemployment - they were even more unproductive and inefficient than they are now, and yet the unemployment was so low, how come?

Not everything can be explained in such simple terms "uuh they are inefficient, let them starve". Sure they need to become more competitive, but while they need to target internal structural issues they cannot do that while dismantling the state at the same time, even more importantly the core of Greek structural problems actually originates in the EU itself not in Greece, which will just shift to the next weakest country after Greece is "dealt with".

EU should be worried about that, indeed many are, but the current leaders of the bureaucracy are just oblivious due to (in my view) their own ideological constraints. If Greeks cannot help EU see the need to restructure, it is better for everyone that the whole thing (EU) unravels faster rather than slower.

In any case, for Greeks themselves default is the better option, so really - they should think about their own interests and exit. If they will have any chance of repaying this debt mountain from within the union, the repayment needs to be tied to growth - otherwise they need to do the reasonable thing and default now rather than after another five years (or more) under policies of social destruction.

[Sava]

Interestingly enough, Oerdin, in US terms, is very anti-austerity practices. Was pro Obama's stimulus. I wonder if his Arab racism is simply climbing up the Mediterranean.

That's my thinking.

It's just like with Elok and his double standard when it comes to "analyzing" Islam. Racists suck.

[C0ckney]

[Imran Siddiqui]

OH SNAP:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/08/greece-prime-minister-alexis-tsipras-unveil-anti-austerity-plan-parliament

Declaring his administration “a government of national salvation”, Tsipras said he would also pursue claims to win back from Germany wartime loans that Greece had been forced to make to Nazi occupiers. “I can’t overlook what is an ethical duty, a duty to history … to lay claim to the wartime debt.”

That was totally badass, I don't care what side of the argument you are on.

And for those who say that a Grexit will only really affect Greece poorly:

The British chancellor, George Osborne, admitted the UK had already embarked on contingency plans in preparation for a Greek exit from the single currency. “This standoff between Greece and the eurozone is increasing the risks every day,” he told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show on Sunday, adding that Athens’ departure from the bloc would not only send European financial markets into a tailspin, but cause “real ructions” in the UK.

Earlier, Alan Greenspan, the former head of the US Federal Reserve, said it was only a matter of time before the country left the eurozone. He said it was difficult to see why anyone would be willing to lend Greece more money and that without additional loans, the country would be forced to default and leave the euro.

“It’s just a matter of time before everyone recognises that parting is the best strategy,” he told BBC Radio 4’s The World This Weekend. “It is not a decision where they are going to come to an agreement. All the cards are being held by the members of the eurozone.”

Greenspan also conceded that a Greek exit might trigger a meltdown in global financial markets: “I don’t think we have a choice.”

[Sava]

Oooh. greenspan... one of the architects of the 2008 collapse

we should value his thoughts

/not

[Dinner]

Alan Greenspan is saying he believes a Greek default is a near certainity.