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  • Hey Guy! May I have your comment on this?

    Doctors opposed to the Florida law that forbids inquiries about firearms ownership unless they are medical relevant say they will keep battling in court for the sake of free speech and patient safety.


    Florida's 'Gun-Gag' Law for Doctors Upheld by Appeals Court

    A Florida law that prohibits physicians from asking patients whether they own a gun unless the question is medically relevant is constitutional after all, a 3-judge panel of a federal appeals court in Atlanta, Georgia, said July 25.

    Hailed by the National Rifle Association (NRA) in a news release as "a significant defeat for the gun control lobby," the 2-1 decision voids a decision by a federal district court judge in Miami, Florida, who struck down the law as an infringement on the free-speech rights of physicians. The appellate court panel disagreed, saying the law regulated only clinical practice.

    "The act simply codifies that good medical care does not require inquiry or record-keeping regarding firearms when unnecessary to a patient's care," the majority opinion stated. "Any burden the act places on physician speech is...entirely incidental."

    Several Florida physicians and the state chapters of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Academy of Family Physicians, and the American College of Physicians sued the state of Florida at the district court level to overturn what they call a "gag law." They said they now intend to ask all 9 active judges of the US Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit to reconsider last week's ruling.

    "I was stunned and shocked by it," said Judith Schaechter, MD, interim chair of the Pediatrics Department at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, who was one of the original plaintiffs. "It seemed to me a First Amendment issue."

    Dr. Schaechter and others who oppose the law maintain they bring up the subject of guns in the exam room — especially with parents of young children — for the sake of discussing safe storage and other gun ownership practices. All they are trying to prevent, they say, is a 3-year-old finding a loaded pistol in a desk drawer. The gun question is on par with asking parents whether they have a swimming pool, a hazard that requires its own precautions.

    However, Florida lawmakers passed their law in 2011 believing that a gun control agenda was motivating some physicians to ask about firearms and, in some cases, harass patients in the process. The law they crafted states that "a healthcare practitioner...shall respect a patient's right to privacy and should refrain from making a written inquiry or asking questions concerning the ownership of a firearm." The same restriction applies to recording gun ownership in the medical record. Physicians breaking the law risk discipline by the state medical board.

    A loophole states that gun inquiries and record-keeping are permissible if a clinician "in good faith believes that this information is relevant to the patient's medical care or safety, or the safety of others." However, physicians such as Dr. Schaechter claim that the reference to clinical relevance is too fuzzy to give them any assurance they are complying with the law.

    In declaring the law unconstitutional in a permanent injunction in 2012, US District Court Judge Marcia Cooke in Miami said that its vagueness about relevance and other matters contributed to its chilling effect on physicians' speech. She also said that the case, sometimes called "docs versus Glocks," had nothing to do with the right to bear arms.

    Florida state officials, including Governor Rick Scott, asked the appellate court in Atlanta to reverse the decision. The NRA filed a friend-of-the-court brief claiming that the law "exhorts doctors to stick to practicing medicine...rather than pushing their own political agendas."

    "We Think It's Always Relevant"

    In its majority opinion, the appellate court in Atlanta asserted that the clinical relevance exception to gun inquiries is not vague. On the basis of the plain meaning of the word "relevance," it said, physicians should decide on a patient-by-patient basis whether the gun question is apropos. Assuming that the question is relevant for every patient, it noted, would render the law "superfluous."

    The physicians who sued the state of Florida continue to view the relevance exception as unclear. "I'm still confused," Dr. Schaechter told Medscape Medical News. "The opinion doesn't ever touch on what I and other pediatricians do. We ask because we think it's always relevant."

    The appellate court left the door open for physicians to counsel patients about gun safety with a pamphlet or a brief word of advice without asking specifically whether they own a gun or writing down the answer. It is a reasonable approach, but not ideal, said Thomas McInerny, MD, the immediate past president of the AAP, which opposes the Florida law. A chart notation about a gun in the home, Dr. McInerny told Medscape Medical News, might be critical if a new physician began treating a patient who happened to be a suicidal adolescent.

    "It would be helpful to have it in the record," said Dr. McInerny, who called the appellate court ruling "very disappointing."

    The 2 to 1 vote of the court's 3-judge panel broke down along party lines. The 2 judges upholding the Florida law were appointed by Republican presidents, whereas the dissenting judge is a Clinton appointment. Opponents of the law hope that the political dice will roll in their favor if the appellate court's full roster of active judges rehears the case. Six of the 9 are Democrat appointees, with 3 named by President Barack Obama. Earlier this month, the Senate approved a fourth Obama nominee, US District Court Judge Julie Carnes, to join the appellate court.

    Until the appeals process is exhausted, the lower-court ban of the Florida law will remain in place, noted Louis St. Petery, MD, a pediatric cardiologist in Tallahassee, Florida, and executive vice president of the state's AAP chapter, which was one of the original plaintiffs. When asked whether the plaintiffs would take their free-speech cause to the Supreme Court in the event of another appellate court defeat, Dr. St. Petery told Medscape Medical News that such a decision would depend on the advice of their attorneys.

    "It's a premature question right now," he added.
    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

  • #2
    I see no problem with physicians asking this question. There should be more opportunities for people to be educated about gun safety.
    “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
    "Capitalism ho!"

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    • #3
      Do you regularly waste time in your visits with patients asking irrelevant questions, Dr S?
      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • #4
        When we see children for regular check ups we're supposed to ask a lot of questions about development, nutrition, school progress, home environment, exposure to and use of tobacco, drugs, alcohol, and safety. All of these are relevant to the child's health.
        "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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        • #5
          Do you regularly waste time in your visits with patients asking irrelevant questions, Dr S?
          You have to ask that question? Doc Strangelove doesn't support the 2nd amendment.
          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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          • #6
            Gun safety is irrelevant lol
            To us, it is the BEAST.

            Comment


            • #7
              Coming from a "responsible" gun owner, no doubt hahaha what a joke
              To us, it is the BEAST.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                Do you regularly waste time in your visits with patients asking irrelevant questions, Dr S?
                This is not a road you want to be going down with me, friend.
                "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
                "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

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                • #9
                  Coming from a "responsible" gun owner, no doubt hahaha what a joke
                  What gun do I own?
                  Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                  "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                  2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Guynemer View Post
                    This is not a road you want to be going down with me, friend.
                    I love taunting worshipers of Khorne.
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't understand the statement, and I won't respond to it.
                      "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
                      "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's Florida, just be thankful they didn't merge this is with "stand your ground" laws. "If someone asks you about your gun you should be free to shoot them to defend your 2nd amendment rights."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Guynemer View Post
                          I don't understand the statement, and I won't respond to it.
                          It means I'll go down that road with you while protesting you giving Vitamin K shots to infants. Because the reaction would amuse me.
                          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            whatwver... here's my comment - sucvk it!

                            but reaaltly your post is too longf. I camt read all that. edit it fown to the really important 3 lines.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                              What gun do I own?
                              I can barely tell who said what. This mobile app is not landscape mode friendly
                              To us, it is the BEAST.

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