Ashers Baking Company: 'Gay cake' row could end up in court

[C0ckney]

edit: x-post in response to plato.

that is what i was trying to say with 'play down the passages about homosexuality and focus on other aspects' though i think you put it better.

in any case there are two debates here. firstly, the debate about what christianity 'really' says about homosexuality and how to apply this to the current social and political context and secondly, the debate about how society, of which christians and christian institutions are a shrinking part, treats homosexuals. to me the first only matters insofar as it affects the second, and i merely wanted to point out how i think it is possible to square that circle. of course christians will take a different view and the first will be of great importance to them moving forward. i wish you and those of similar views good luck in that fight.

[MOBIUS]

Non-American polytubbies should also note that our sole example of American social conservatism on here is BK, and he's not exactly a representative sample. Quite apart from not actually being American, he's more of a caricature of conservatism. Like Stephen Colbert, only less likeable and apparently not kidding. Also, the persistent dishonesty is not a particularly Evangelical/Fundamentalist/Conservative trait. Anyway, don't be fooled into thinking American conservatives are as cartoonish as our resident cartoon.

Even the one person in this thread that Ben agrees with realises that such agreement is so toxic to his own arguments that he has to publicly distance himself from him in the strongest possible terms!

Elok: You are wrong for the simple reason that Ben agrees with your stance - sorry but mud* sticks...









* and by that I mean racist, homophobic, child-raping, turd infested mud...

[Ben Kenobi]

christians will take a different view and the first will be of great importance to them moving forward. i wish you and those of similar views good luck in that fight

Interesting how you're willing to use the power of the state to punish Christians who happen to disagree with you.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have to laugh. I have never said that I want the church to marry gays. I have always supported their right not to. It is my right as a Christian to follow the golden rule and try to get other Christians to do the same.

Yet you're willing to work and undermine the faith so that it does. Odd that. At least I'm honest.

And you play this like a trump card claiming "see I win". If leaving you be is your ultimate desire, you should practice what you preach and let others be. You are a hypocrite Douche.

"Am I my brother's keeper"?

[Ben Kenobi]

I do not choose to ignore that the bible says homosexuality is a sin any more than I choose to ignore that lying is a sin. The bible is very clear that God does not draw distinction among sins...a sin is a sin. However, Jesus also makes it clear that love of your neighbor was the new commandment. To me, anyway, that overrides the harshness of the old testament.

Loving your neighbor doesn't mean ignoring grave sins. Hebrews 12.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

God Disciplines His Children

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

[Ben Kenobi]

This day has been a long time coming; the sexual revolution fifty years ago made it more or less inevitable. Churches are facing empty pews and shortages of clergy, and they've lost the fight on gay marriage.

Oh? I suggest you tell that to Jesus Christ. Or do you believe he's dead and not coming back?

[Ben Kenobi]

Non-American polytubbies should also note that our sole example of American social conservatism on here is BK, and he's not exactly a representative sample. Quite apart from not actually being American, he's more of a caricature of conservatism

Unlike Colbert I actually believe what I post. Sure, I'm not an American. There are some portions which I will probably never get or understand. As a Conservative, I'm not sure what exactly is a 'caricature'. Do you tell yourself that as a balm?

[Ben Kenobi]

Cockney

the idea that this will cause big problems for christians seems a little strange to me. although i accept your view that it's difficult to read the bible (or koran) in a way that finds homosexuality acceptable, i don't see why this need be such a big problem. firstly, a secularist would say, so what? the bible was written for people in a very rude state of civilisation and so of course does not, and cannot, have any bearing on modern social questions; or in other words, welcome to modern society.

The Bible argues that God transcends time, that he exists outside of time, and that his morality is inextricably bound up in who He is. The consequence of all of these means that his moral code is unchanging. This is why Christ argues in Matthew 19, that he created men and women for each other. To be two parts of a whole. In a sense that man was made for a particular moral l code not the other way around.

secondly, christianity is, and indeed is strong because it is, adaptable to changing political and social realities. the bible is a very large book with lots of different messages, and christians can choose, as many in fact have chosen, to quietly ignore or play down the passages about homosexuality and focus on other aspects.

In what way has Christianity changed?

[Lorizael]

Interesting how you're willing to use the power of the state to punish Christians who happen to disagree with you.

Multi

Yet you're willing to work and undermine the faith so that it does. Odd that. At least I'm honest.



"Am I my brother's keeper"?

quote

Loving your neighbor doesn't mean ignoring grave sins. Hebrews 12.

is

Oh? I suggest you tell that to Jesus Christ. Or do you believe he's dead and not coming back?

a

Unlike Colbert I actually believe what I post. Sure, I'm not an American. There are some portions which I will probably never get or understand. As a Conservative, I'm not sure what exactly is a 'caricature'. Do you tell yourself that as a balm?

thing

Cockney



The Bible argues that God transcends time, that he exists outside of time, and that his morality is inextricably bound up in who He is. The consequence of all of these means that his moral code is unchanging. This is why Christ argues in Matthew 19, that he created men and women for each other. To be two parts of a whole. In a sense that man was made for a particular moral l code not the other way around.





In what way has Christianity changed?

.

[DinoDoc]

Multi



quote



is



a



thing



.

Molly would disagree.

[Lorizael]

Yes, but Molly is a much better poster than BK; he posts less.

[Dinner]

What? Don't you see black people constantly harassing white supremacists all over the place?

Fox has repeatedly made the claim that not only is this happening but also that it is a far bigger issue than racism against non-whites. It helps their elderly all white audience feel like victims, which is their primary goal.

[N35t0r]

Also, according to BK, the Vatican councils were wrong in introducing changes to the catholic church, forcing the changes onto priests.

[Nikolai]

Not in Denmark.

The Norwegian church is under extensive pressure to allow gay marriage too. The church is divided more or less exactly on the middle.

[Nikolai]

Also, sorry, but the danish church wasn't forced to recognise gay marriage. It's authorities decided to allow it.

So nice try, but remember that lying is a sin.

I don't know the Danish situation, but they have a similar church setup as ours. Here, the state, lobbyists, media etc all pressure for change. Some priests and bishops too. The church is divided on the issue, but still a small majority is against it. Some of the people are trying for a compromise(blessing of marriage, but not performing it). In short, the church authorities are under huge pressure to reform. After all, tolerance is only for those with accepted views.