Israeli Police Beat 15 year old American Citizen

[DinoDoc]

At no point have I ever suggested not mounting a military response.

People die in military operations, MOBIUS. It's sad, people try their best to prevent it, but it still happens. So we're still left with your facile objection from post #427. People would still die in the course of a military response.

Re Post #425: I'd like to point out that it's not Israel's place to overthrow leadership that Palestinians chose for themselves in a democratic election. That change has to come from within. Provided that they dislike the course Hamas has led them on, of course.

[Dinner]

you mean the west bank where the israeli appropriation of land and division of palestinian sections into tiny, ungovernable 'bantustans' continues unabated. oncle boris even posted a map in this thread; you've no excuse for not knowing. therefore, it must be that you want to the palestinians to be dispossessed and forced off their lands by jewish invaders and colonisers, while denying them any possibility of resistance.

They could have made peace at any time and the borders would become fixed just like any other international border. Sadly, the Palestinians have ALWAYS refused peace so what is Israel to do when faced with an enemy who clearly only wants war and refuses peace? They've come up with an excellent solution; you continually increase the cost of war by continually taking more and more land. The longer the Palestinians reject peace the less they're going to have left for a state of their own. It puts real pressure on them when there is no real other way to put pressure on them. I find it extremely just.

[C0ckney]

Toaster fires have killed more people than Hamas rockets.



http://www.consumerwatch.com/househo...s/toasters.php

don't give them ideas. soon we'll be hearing from the usual suspects here about the need for the IDF to bomb palestinian children's playgrounds as a response to the toaster apocalypse

[C0ckney]

They could have made peace at any time and the borders would become fixed just like any other international border. Sadly, the Palestinians have ALWAYS refused peace so what is Israel to do when faced with an enemy who clearly only wants war and refuses peace? They've come up with an excellent solution; you continually increase the cost of war by continually taking more and more land. The longer the Palestinians reject peace the less they're going to have left for a state of their own. It puts real pressure on them when there is no real other way to put pressure on them. I find it extremely just.

not a single word in this post is true, except for your own admission that you have no sense of justice.

[Dinner]

People die in military operations, MOBIUS. It's sad, people try their best to prevent it, but it still happens. So we're still left with your facile objection from post #427. People would still die in the course of a military response.

Re Post #425: I'd like to point out that it's not Israel's place to overthrow leadership that Palestinians chose for themselves in a democratic election. That change has to come from within. Provided that they dislike the course Hamas has led them on, of course.

This. The only ones who can change the course of the Palestinians is the Palestinians and until they do that they are responsible for their own actions. Mobius can try to pretend that's not true but that doesn't hold water.

[Sava]

Adam Lanza is literally a more prolific killer than Hamas' rocket program.

[The Mad Monk]

you mean the west bank where the israeli appropriation of land and division of palestinian sections into tiny, ungovernable 'bantustans' continues unabated. oncle boris even posted a map in this thread; you've no excuse for not knowing. therefore, it must be that you want to the palestinians to be dispossessed and forced off their lands by jewish invaders and colonisers, while denying them any possibility of resistance.

Gee, it's almost as if this thread never happened.

[C0ckney]

And yes, TMM is right to point to the West Bank (though they have to suffer getting shafted daily by the Israelis - the difference is that they don't fight back). Therefore the challenge is to reach that situation - instead of playing into the hands of Hamas...

here is where you and i part company. the challenge is not to get to a situation where the palestinians are forced to bend over and take it from the jewish colonisers, but rather to force israel to stop and reverse the process of colonisation. the way to do this is through international pressure, boycotts, and sanctions, similar to those imposed on apartheid south africa.

[The Mad Monk]

regarding Hamas rocket "attacks"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

Just DD lying again. He's does it a lot more than BK.

Qassams?

Iran supplied Hamas with Fajr-5 missile technologyRevolutionary Guards commander says his forces helped militant group in Gaza build missiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv

Saeed Kamali Dehghan guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 21 November 2012 11.31 EST


Israel's Iron Dome in Tel Aviv intercepts incoming rockets from Gaza. On Saturday, Hamas claimed to have fired a Fajr-5 missile at Tel Aviv. Photograph: Uriel Sinai/Getty Images

The commander of Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards has publicly admitted that his forces supplied the Islamic militant group Hamas with the knowhow to develop Fajr-5 missiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv.

"We haven't sent any weapons to Gaza because it is under blockade," Mohammad Ali Jafari was quoted as saying by Iran's Young Journalists Club news agency on Wednesday. "But we are honoured to announce that we gave them the technology of how to make Fajr-5 missiles and now they have their hands on plenty of them."

Jafar's remarks are a rare admission by such a high profile regime official that Tehran has supported Hamas militarily.

On Saturday, Hamas claimed to have fired a Fajr-5 missile at Tel Aviv, Israel's second most populous city, but Israel said the rocket was shot down by an anti-missile battery. Iranian officials initially distanced themselves from accusations they were supplying Hamas but now appear to be boasting about their role in enabling Palestinians to build their own Fajr-5 missiles, which have a range of up to 46.6 miles (75km).

Alaeddin Boroujerdi, an influential MP who heads the parliamentary committee on national security and foreign policy, had said at the weekend that the accusations were unfounded.

But the Speaker of the Iranian parliament, Ali Larijani, echoed Jafari's comments on Wednesday in saying that Tehran's support for Palestinians had military dimensions.

"We are honoured that our help has material and military aspects, and these Arab countries that sit and hold meetings should know that the nation of Palestine does not need words or meetings," he said, according to quotes carried by the semi-official Fars news agency.

"Our message is that if Arab countries want to help the nation of Palestine they should give military assistance."

It was not clear from Larijani's comment whether Iran had actually smuggled Fajr-5 missiles into the Gaza Strip or if he merely went as far as the commander's remarks.

Meanwhile, Fars, which is affiliated to the Revolutionary Guards, published an article boasting about the capabilities of Fajr-5, which it said "changed the scene of the war between Israel and Palestinians".

"The world class Fajr-5 is a solid fuel, non-fixed wing, 333mm rocket designed and optimised for artillery missions to hit enemy's command and control, logistic, radar, communication, economic and political centres," Fars said. "It is a rocket with 75km range, a payload of 178kg and speed of 1,009 metres per second."

Earlier this year, the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final word on all state matters, said Iran would help any group that fights against the "cancer" of Israel.

"We have intervened in anti-Israel matters, and it brought victory in the 33-day war by Hezbollah against Israel in 2006, and in the 22-day war [between Hamas and Israel in the Gaza Strip]," he said in February.

"From now on, in any place, if any nation or any group confronts the Zionist regime, we will endorse and we will help. We have no fear expressing this," he said at the time.

On Wednesday, Khamenei also called on the Arab world to help "the oppressed people of Gaza" and intervene for an end to its blockade by Israel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/iran-supplied-hamas-missile-technology

Qassams are old hat.

[C0ckney]

Gee, it's almost as if this thread never happened.

indeed. how do you reconcile the position you took in that thread with the one you've taken in this?

[Dinner]

I agree, but surely 2 civilian deaths from thousands of rockets fired is preferable to voluntarily getting another 29 Israelis killed unnecessarily!?

Numerically that is better, I agree, but politically no state can allow themselves to be continually attacked and not respond. The government would fall if they didn't respond in a meaningful way so your proposal isn't realistic.

By a mere 30% as of today. The Iron Dome defence is still therefore MASSIVELY MORE EFFECTIVE than the ground incursion! Not to mention the fact that Hamas is destroying its own rockets by actually firing them...

Something tells me "just let them keep firing rockets until they run out" isn't a realistic solution either.

Actually it did work in Northern Ireland - once the military equation was removed. Kinda like what I'm proposing. Vietnam was different because it was mainly an invasion from the north. Iraq merely proves my point - but thanks for agreeing with me that the US should never have attacked Iraq.

I've agreed multiple times that Iraq was a mistake. NI peace was only really possible after the "keep fighting" crowd had been discredited by decades and decades of no results so that people were finally willing to try something new. Maybe the same thing will eventually happen with the Palestinians but for now they're still voting for the likes of Hamas and trying their kids to be killers and human shields so it doesn't seem as if they've reached that tipping point. Further more it doesn't even seem like they've started to question their ways yet.

As for the Palestinians, you might have a point - but with good reason because of the why they have been treated by Israel basically since 1948: if you keep brutalising a population so systematically and for so long - is it any wonder that a significant minority (and it is STILL an overwhelming minority) will want to actively fight back!? Yes, it will take a long time to re-educate the people of Gaza - but with peace overtures and not bullets!

What you call brutalizing I call reasonable defensive measures to combat terrorism. Stop those defensive measures and a wave of new terrorist attacks will follow so it is best to keep them in place until such a time as the Palestinians can act better than feral dogs.

How do you know it's the vast majority? They rule through fear now. Also they swept to power during another of Israel's crackdowns at a time when Fatah was riven with corruption - I bet loads of Gazans regret voting Hamas but yet you still blame them - have you never ****ed up in your life, Oerdin!?

Sure, I've ****ed up plenty. I can honestly say I've never voted for a terrorist organization before though I have, on occasion voted for a Republican ( ) that said, we can only really go by the most recent election result and the most recent election shows the majority, for what ever reason, voted for Hamas and for war so, yes, that makes it a hell of a lot harder to feel sorry for them when they get exactly what they voted for.

Well that's the point, Oerdin, you answered yourself - warfare is obviously not the solution.

What I'm saying is there is no real solution short of a full population removal something which is politically not possible but which is the only real answer for peace in the short to medium term. So I agree warfare isn't the final answer but it is the best of the alternatives available. Everything else is worse and it is impossible to avoid war when the other side keeps attacking so you might as well make the best of it and make sure the other guy gets it a hell of a lot worse than you do. If that sounds like resignation to war that is because it is but it is also true. You can't make peace with people who don't want peace. FACT.

[Sava]

Qassams are old hat.

Then explain the complete lack of casualties. And don't give me "iron dome". It's only been up for a short time. Even by Israeli reports, it's been "only" 83% effective (from what I read, days ago).

I mean, either Hamas has super sophisticated equipment or they don't. If they do, where are the casualties? Are they just waiting for the right time to strike? I thought Hamas was hell bent on killing as many Israelis as possible.

You can't have it both ways.

[Dinner]

Yeah, 80 years of trying to win militarily...

You are easily the most stupid poster on this entire forum!

I said, trying to change people's minds took 80 years.

[The Mad Monk]

indeed. how do you reconcile the position you took in that thread with the one you've taken in this?

Easy. The people in that thread were not firing rockets.

[The Mad Monk]

Then explain the complete lack of casualties. And don't give me "iron dome". It's only been up for a short time. Even by Israeli reports, it's been "only" 83% effective (from what I read, days ago).

I mean, either Hamas has super sophisticated equipment or they don't. If they do, where are the casualties? Are they just waiting for the right time to strike? I thought Hamas was hell bent on killing as many Israelis as possible.

You can't have it both ways.

The iron dome is wonderful piece of technology.