Pope excommunicates the Mafia

[Bereta_Eder]

What's sad is that Ben doesn't even have an actual Catholic background. He never had a first communion. He never was an altar boy. He never grew up with a community of people who share the same faith and background.

I feel sorry for him for that.

In reality, he's just a little psycho who seemed to find other psychos to hang out with... and they happen to be "Catholic".

Catholicism is like Orthodoxy. You are either born one or you're not. Sure, friends are welcome to join whenever. But they, at the very least, should respect those people whose faith is part of their cultural identity. Religion isn't a salad bar to us. You don't get to pick and choose what you like or don't like... or just focusing on abortion and gays... I mean, come the **** on. You read the Bible (allegedly) and that's the message you take away from it?

That's seriously ****ing messed up.

I completely agree with that except for a reportage I saw about protestants (english and germans) converting to orthodoxy. They managed to preserve that sweetness that seems to come with believing in god they spoke intricate greek and were amazingly focused on what differantiated orthodoxy from other faiths. i bet the middle "bred and raised" joe don't know about those differences.

[Sava]

Indeed. One of the greatest arguments against Catholicism on this forum is Ben. I'm not saying people would be all super pro-Catholic if Ben had left years ago, but the view of the Catholic Church here would be much better if its main defender on these forums was Felch.

Felch

[Berzerker]

What about them?

isn't the covenant an open invitation?

[Nikolai]

isn't the covenant an open invitation?

Christians are grafted into God's Israel, becoming part of God's chosen people.

[Berzerker]

but that means everyone is chosen if they follow Jesus' teachings

[Ben Kenobi]

isn't the covenant an open invitation?

God has extended the covenant to the Gentiles. That doesn't change his promises to the Jews.

[kentonio]

Don't you ever feel like all this bible nonsense gets a little too convoluted? I mean you have to remember so many longwinded, confusing and contradictory explanations for things that are kind of idiotic in the first place. Couldn't you all have a team meeting and just agree to quietly rewrite the bible in a single paragraph that just says 'Try not to be dicks to each other'?

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't you ever feel like all this bible nonsense gets a little too convoluted?

Not at all. It makes sense to me.

I mean you have to remember so many longwinded, confusing and contradictory explanations for things that are kind of idiotic in the first place.

What's contradictory about it. The only real difference is one - the empty chair, the messiah that the Jews wait for has already come. Gentiles have been grafted in by Christ himself.

Couldn't you all have a team meeting and just agree to quietly rewrite the bible in a single paragraph that just says 'Try not to be dicks to each other'?

So you'd take the second greatest commandment but not the first, "Love the Lord God?"

[kentonio]

What's contradictory about it. The only real difference is one - the empty chair, the messiah that the Jews wait for has already come. Gentiles have been grafted in by Christ himself.

Why are some people Jews? Are those people less worthy or less intelligent or less wise than the Christians? You both supposedly believe in the same god, yet instead of communicating and working together in his image, you both follow dogmatic belief systems that care more about the technicalities of events of two millenium ago than you do about god himself.

It's never about the things you share, it's all about convoluted attempts to explain why your club is better than their club, or why despite the differences it all supposedly makes sense in some way, despite not being able to agree about the only thing you all actually share.

So you'd take the second greatest commandment but not the first, "Love the Lord God?"

I've never trusted people who start out by insisting you have to love them.

[C0ckney]

Don't you ever feel like all this bible nonsense gets a little too convoluted?

jesus' central message is a good one: 'love one another', 'do unto others', 'love your enemies' (still a pretty radical message today). even 'love god' need not be problematic; an atheist can interpret god as man and man as god, in the same way feuerbach did. both the sincere believer and the atheist can support these ideas.

the problem comes when people try to use the writings of a bunch of semi-literate goat herders on diverse topics and apply them to the political and social problems of the world today. this is not only absurd, but also causes real problems and difficulties; that is, people applying ideas dreamt up 2000+ years ago in response to the particular context(s) of the time, to modern situations, actually causes real human suffering today.

[kentonio]

jesus' central message is a good one: 'love one another', 'do unto others', 'love your enemies' (still a pretty radical message today). even 'love god' need not be problematic; an atheist can interpret god as man and man as god, in the same way feuerbach did. both the sincere believer and the atheist can support these ideas.

the problem comes when people try to use the writings of a bunch of semi-literate goat herders and apply them to the political and social problems of the world today. this is not only absurd, but also causes real problems and difficulties; that is, people applying ideas dreamt up 2000+ years ago in response to the particular context(s) of the time, to modern situations, actually causes real human suffering today.

Yeah that's my point exactly. I can't believe in a god as an entity but those ideas form a superb base for what I believe should be mankind's own quest to better ourselves as a species and truly shape our own direction. Every time I hear people practically reject those values in favour of endlessly bickering over the semantics of some iron age works of fiction it just makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a wall.

[Ben Kenobi]

even 'love god' need not be problematic; an atheist can interpret god as man and man as god, in the same way feuerbach did. both the sincere believer and the atheist can support these ideas.

Uh. No. That's contrary to the entire point of that commandment. You love God, not yourself.

the problem comes when people try to use the writings of a bunch of semi-literate goat herders on diverse topics and apply them to the political and social problems of the world today. this is not only absurd, but also causes real problems and difficulties; that is, people applying ideas dreamt up 2000+ years ago in response to the particular context(s) of the time, to modern situations, actually causes real human suffering today.

Oh. Like in stating that marriage is to be one man and one woman? I thought marriage wasn't a modern invention and that the Bible says plenty about it. The Bible would argue that all these shiny 'new' ideas are just old ones wrapped and gussied up, and that Christian moral teachings are transcendent.

[Ben Kenobi]

I can't believe in a god as an entity but those ideas form a superb base for what I believe should be mankind's own quest to better ourselves as a species and truly shape our own direction.

I don't see the basis for choosing the second commandment and not the first one. If you're going to accept the second commandment, what is the justification for rejecting the first?

Why are some people Jews?

Long story short? They are descendents of Abraham and the patriarchs, or they are converts to the faith.

Are those people less worthy or less intelligent or less wise than the Christians?

No. I would argue, historically, God made a covenant specifically for them, so I would argue they are more, not less blessed.

You both supposedly believe in the same god, yet instead of communicating and working together in his image, you both follow dogmatic belief systems that care more about the technicalities of events of two millenium ago than you do about god himself.

Uh, the dispute over whether Christ is God and whether Christ is the Messiah is not a mere 'technicality', but fundamental disagreements as to the nature of Christ.

It's never about the things you share, it's all about convoluted attempts to explain why your club is better than their club, or why despite the differences it all supposedly makes sense in some way, despite not being able to agree about the only thing you all actually share.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah foretold by the Jewish Prophets. Jews do not. That is the core difference between the two.

I've never trusted people who start out by insisting you have to love them.

Would you love the painting and not the painter?

[kentonio]

I don't see the basis for choosing the second commandment and not the first one. If you're going to accept the second commandment, what is the justification for rejecting the first?

I don't give a damn about your commandments, and in fact even the word enfuriates me. Your god gives me no commands, either a principle is worth following on it's own merits or it is not. There have been countless philosophers and theologians over the years who have had good ideas, that doesn't mean you can only adopt those ideas if you also choose to follow everything else they say.

Long story short? They are descendents of Abraham and the patriarchs, or they are converts to the faith.

No. I would argue, historically, God made a covenant specifically for them, so I would argue they are more, not less blessed.

What about the Muslims, and the Hindus and the pagans and the Buddhists? What about the athiests? Are they less worthy or less intelligent or less wise than the Christians? Does god love them less by setting in place conditions for their ancestors that then carry down through hundreds of generations?

Or is it more likely that it doesn't actually make any sense.

Uh, the dispute over whether Christ is God and whether Christ is the Messiah is not a mere 'technicality', but fundamental disagreements as to the nature of Christ.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah foretold by the Jewish Prophets. Jews do not. That is the core difference between the two.

I.E. technical details of crap that wouldn't matter if you all just agreed on 'God is love' and threw all the other pointless **** away.

Would you love the painting and not the painter?

Most painters care only about their creations, not that people love them personally.

More to the point though, if there truly is some creator whose power, mercy and love is without limits, why exactly would they need to tell you to love them? Surely such a being would command infinite love just through it's existence? Surely the whole 'You shall worship no gods other than me'/'love the lord thy god' stuff is the ultimate proof of deceit.

Those with real power don't need to go around telling everyone how powerful they are.

[C0ckney]

Uh. No. That's contrary to the entire point of that commandment. You love God, not yourself.

whether you agree or not, it is certainly possible to view god as man, and man as god. he might be seen as the highest of man's ideals; or the various aspects of god (holiness, power, presence etc.) can be seen as projections of human self-consciousness.

Oh. Like in stating that marriage is to be one man and one woman? I thought marriage wasn't a modern invention and that the Bible says plenty about it. The Bible would argue that all these shiny 'new' ideas are just old ones wrapped and gussied up, and that Christian moral teachings are transcendent.

you seem to be saying that the issue is what the bible really says, i.e. the right interpretation of its message relating to such issues. my argument is that it doesn't matter what the bible says about them, and that using the bible as a guide to modern problems, except at the most abstract level, causes a lot of harm.