Do poly atheists know the Bible?

[Ben Kenobi]

Eternal life sounds like a punishment to me. So you're sitting up there in heaven, right.... forever. You watch humanity eventually die. You watch the Earth be destroyed. You watch the heat death of the universe.

But humanity won't be dead because there will be others in heaven.

You spend eternity... awake? aware? Doing what? Watching reruns of old TV shows?

Well, first we get bodies that don't age or decay. As for what to do, anything you want. Imagine being able to look back in time. How much time would that take you?

The fact is, the whole notion of "God" as we know it doesn't stand up to even the most basic of scrutinies.

Ok. What empirical evidence do you have that the soul does not exist?

Religionistas just seem like incredibly smug *******s. They are soooo sure of all these unknowable answers. But that's not faith. Faith requires doubt. And hardcore believers don't doubt. They are absolutely sure of what they believe in.

I've stated before that I believe the Christian faith to be true because it explains all the historical facts that occurred during the resurrection better than any other alternative explanation. Some say he didn't die on the cross (which seems rather strange to me, given testimony that the Romans speared him to prove that he was dead, and the fact that they put about 50 to 60 pounds of spices on him.

Then you have the whole question of the empty tomb and the intact burial shroud.

But don't take it personally. God gave us all brains. But it seems only some seem intent on using them.

The evidence seems very solid to me. What's the superior alternative?

[Ben Kenobi]

Is there where you are going do your thing where a typo becomes a massive argument point for you?

One would expect someone familiar with Origen would know he didn't write in the first century. Aside from the Gospels and the Epistles, 1 Clement is the only Christian document we possess. This is basic, basic stuff, Imran.

[Imran Siddiqui]

One would expect someone familiar with Origen would know he didn't write in the first century. Aside from the Gospels and the Epistles, 1 Clement is the only Christian document we possess. This is basic, basic stuff, Imran.

So yes.

I started writing 100s, but then thought Century would look better, but I didn't change the 1... but go ahead make the typo a big argument deal.

[Kidlicious]

"The wicked lie in wait for the righteous, to put them to death"

[Ben Kenobi]

I started writing 100s, but then thought Century would look better, but I didn't change the 1... but go ahead make the typo a big argument deal.

How hard is it to just admit you were wrong, Imran? It's happened before.

[Nikolai]

Eternal life sounds like a punishment to me. So you're sitting up there in heaven, right.... forever. You watch humanity eventually die. You watch the Earth be destroyed. You watch the heat death of the universe.

What then?

You spend eternity... awake? aware? Doing what? Watching reruns of old TV shows?

The fact is, the whole notion of "God" as we know it doesn't stand up to even the most basic of scrutinies.

You can believe what you want to believe for all I care... as long as you don't hurt anyone.

Religionistas just seem like incredibly smug assholes. They are soooo sure of all these unknowable answers. But that's not faith. Faith requires doubt. And hardcore believers don't doubt. They are absolutely sure of what they believe in.

If you ask me, yall are doing it wrong. If life is a test, you are failing it... miserably.

But don't take it personally. God gave us all brains. But it seems only some seem intent on using them.

You make some assumptions there. Eternal life is taking place a remade universe, with no sin and no degeneration. Things will surely be totally different. No dead stars and so on. And no, we are not going to heaven. We Christians tend to say that, but the bible tells us we'll live on earth. A remade earth. Totally different from ours today. Heaven will come down TO us. Life will be filled with joy, no sorrow, no boredom. Better than we can imagine, surely. I can try to image it, but surely it will end up even better by far. I look forward to it.

[Elok]

Sparky, that is a LOVELY wombat.

[Berzerker]

players only love you when they're playing

[Kidlicious]

I'm glad he didn't get his balls cut off, Sparky too.

[Aeson]

You mean I'm focusing on the main point of the parable? How dare I?!

There are many ways to read Job. Pretending there's only one main point and everything else is irrelevent is taking a very myopic view of the tale.

It's like if I said the only message of Job was that you should follow in the way of God by making wagers with Satan and that anyone who thinks the tale sent any other message was missing the forest for the trees.

[Aeson]

Why? Plenty of people have come to the opposite conclusion that killing people is good because it gets rid of your enemies.

They are in the minority in most cases. They are also operating on a different level than the logic which I have expressed. Wanting something for yourself is a different issue than wanting to do something to someone else (overriding their right to the previous).

So what you're saying then is whatever the majority agrees is right or wrong, that makes something right or wrong?

No.

What if the majority changes, does this mean that something that is right now could be wrong tomorrow?

No.

Finally, how do you come to the conclusion that the statement, "consensus from individuals is how we determine what is right and what is wrong?" Where does this principle come from?

You have a nice strawman going, but that's all it is.

The reason why consensus is important is only to show that other people also want to be treated the way I want to be treated in this regard. That illustrates the overall benefit to humanity of disallowing murder as a general rule. It's what everyone wants for themselves, so protecting everyone from being murdered makes a lot of sense. (People who want to be murdered can just kill themselves ... )

Murder of someone who doesn't want to be murdered would always be wrong.

Yes.

Glad you can agree that murder is not moral.

So who killed the women and children? God or Satan? God did not kill them, Satan did so.

God gave them to Satan. He could have stopped Satan. His will was that they die so he could win his wager.

So the fact that God permits evil to happen in the world makes the moral tale questionable?

Yep. Since God is claimed to be the authority behind the scripture, God (claimed via the authoritative source even) doing ****ty things call into question His morality in general. Why should I listen to someone about what is right or wrong when they feel letting people die to win a wager is something to do?

So let's back up a bit. What makes 'disregarding the women and children', wrong? Are you saying that God has an obligation to protect everyone from natural harm? Where does this principle come from?

If God is omnipotent then everything that happens is done by him, or by his allowance for it to happen. Yes, that's the main problem I have with an omnipotent God ... every bad thing that's ever happened is necessarily his will being expressed.

You're arguing, "we don't understand scientists therefore we ought to trust them on authority alone." There are serious problems with this argument. We know science is true because we can prove it empirically. The same is not true for morality.

No. I didn't say "should" at all. I simiply said that most people, on most advanced subjects, will never be able to confirm those subjects on their own. They are reliant on experts int he field and their authority. Which is why the way authority presents itself is important. An engineer who builds their own house which collapses probably isn't the guy you want designing your house, even if you don't understand the engineering principles behind why his house collapsed.

I'm glad though you can agree with me about why we should not trust the Bible on it's authority though.

[Kidlicious]

Some people just don't get stuff because they are offended. I don't like certain books or movies because of some part of it is violent or disturbing. Other people aren't bothered. But if you do believe in God you have to accept the fact that he allows women and children to die. In fact he even allows men to die (gasp). I prefer that the Bible treats that as real, other people, like New Agers prefer every asspect of their belief system to not be offensive to anyone. It's kind of like Aeson's reason for believing that murder is wrong. I just don't believe that stuff because it doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem right that God would make a wager like that either, and I don't think he did. Like I've said already, they didn't have to avoid offending people like we do today.

Edit: also, Job is an incredible work. You can make all kinds of interpretations of it but in some cases that's like taking a big crap on a masterpiece.

[Ban Kenobi]

Well, yes actually.

Though He is clear we are not merely His playthings, but His image-bearers (eikon) into Creation, charged with extending His blessings throughout all of the world.

If we're his image-bearers that could simply mean that we're as sadistic and cruel as he is.

Especially considering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Though some historians still believe it to be true, Origen of ALL people during the 2nd Century would be the last thing from being a literalist.

Of course it could be non-literal and only mean celibacy, but how can you possibly know which things Jesus said literally and which non-literally? Probably by going with whatever conforms to what you already believed.

[Ban Kenobi]

You make some assumptions there. Eternal life is taking place a remade universe, with no sin and no degeneration. Things will surely be totally different. No dead stars and so on. And no, we are not going to heaven. We Christians tend to say that, but the bible tells us we'll live on earth. A remade earth. Totally different from ours today. Heaven will come down TO us. Life will be filled with joy, no sorrow, no boredom. Better than we can imagine, surely. I can try to image it, but surely it will end up even better by far. I look forward to it.

WOW! I don't know why God couldn't get it right the first time but Earth 2.0 sounds fantastic!

[Imran Siddiqui]

There are many ways to read Job. Pretending there's only one main point and everything else is irrelevent is taking a very myopic view of the tale.

It's like if I said the only message of Job was that you should follow in the way of God by making wagers with Satan and that anyone who thinks the tale sent any other message was missing the forest for the trees.

Wow. The attempts to miss, or rather deliberately obscure, the main point of the parable are stunning in its Ben-ness.

I just realized that you may not actually know what missing the forest for the trees actually means.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/not+see+the+forest+for+the+trees