There's Something Absolutely Wrong with what we do to Boys...

[Kidlicious]

What does providing for women have do to with anything? Being jobless, broke and unloved is sufficiently depressing all on its own.

Because men associate love with providing for others. Men feel unloved when they fail to provide for others. Why do you think we do it? Is it just because we are nice people? I say no it's because of psychological need.

[Kidlicious]

One day may dad sat me down and told me the three great truths of the universe --

1) Life is intolerable.
2) It is only getting worse.
3) There is no end in sight.

Worst 5th birthday party ever...

We've got to realize that boys become men and we have to prepare them for that. We do that with girls more now I think. We teach them to stay away from abusive men. Sometimes they do exactly what we tell them not to but atleast we do right by them.

[DirtyMartini]

What equivalent lesson is it that you want to teach boys? Stay away from gold-diggers?

[Kidlicious]

What equivalent lesson is it that you want to teach boys? Stay away from gold-diggers?

Yes, and false accusers, physical and emotional abusers, and child abusers etc...

[self biased]

That sounds like a pirates/global warming type of analysis...

this also sounds suspiciously like the Red Pill claptrap of fedora-wearing neckbeards.

[DirtyMartini]

Yes, and false accusers, physical and emotional abusers, and child abusers etc...

Pretty sure most decent parents do teach their children of both genders to avoid these things. Also not sure what any of this has to do with young male suicide rates or stunted masculinity.

[notyoueither]

Given the sheer amount of stuff that's changed since the 1940s--and the difficulty of establishing solid data on something as ephemeral as a society's support for notions of masculinity--I don't see an easy way for you to argue your point either.

You're right. It isn't easy.

I've actually lost the thread, here. What exactly is supposed to be causing male failure? At times it sounds like people are saying it's disrespect for their masculinity, while at others it's because they're being held to traditional male expectations like being the breadwinner. Or not being a girly boy. I think it might be that there are three slightly-different arguments going on, but I'm not sure.

Did you watch the OP video? It's about a problem. What to do about it?

[notyoueither]

this also sounds suspiciously like the Red Pill claptrap of fedora-wearing neckbeards.

That's bizarre. Where are you getting that?

[Kidlicious]

Pretty sure most decent parents do teach their children of both genders to avoid these things. Also not sure what any of this has to do with young male suicide rates or stunted masculinity.

Umm no. Boys are taught to protect and provide for women and that they themselves are disposable. Why do you think they go off and die in war? Why do you think they go down with the ship? Why do you think a man that is physically or emotionally abused by a women stays with her and doesn't call the police? Why do you think we have a Violence against Women Act and not a VAMA?

[notyoueither]

I think if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll find that I never suggested that gun ownership is a cause of suicide.

You're right.

You conflated the groups who choose to attempt suicide and fail with those who do and succeed.

In fact, these seem to be different groups of people. Those who fail aren't really trying to kill themselves. Those who use a gun (or jump off a high precipice, or use other similar leathal means) are.

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c10690.pdf

pg 38 of the pdf

As noted above, suicide completions are very different from suicide at-
tempts. The two behaviors involve different methods and demographic
groups. Most psychological-audit studies find that people who successfully
commit suicide intend to die, whereas most people who attempt suicide
probably do not.

All the while, you're ignoring the elephant in the room (the high number of youths commiting suicide). Some people are wondering why. Not you apparently.

We're left with how to gather data about people who do kill themselves. Short of the paranormal, stats are about what we've got.

[DirtyMartini]

Umm no. Boys are taught to protect and provide for women and that they themselves are disposable.

Not by their parents they're not, unless they're the children of the drill instructor from Full Metal Jacket.

[notyoueither]

It would be a lot easier if kid and I were in different threads. The hard done by male is not where I am coming from.

[Kidlicious]

Not by their parents they're not, unless they're the children of the drill instructor from Full Metal Jacket.

What do you think daddy does? And mommy says this is good. Are you serious? Do you actually think boys would be growing up like this if their parents were actively trying to prevent it?

[DirtyMartini]

Do you actually think boys would be growing up like this if their parents were actively trying to prevent it?

I don't think boys are growing up like this.

[Kidlicious]

It would be a lot easier if kid and I were in different threads. The hard done by male is not where I am coming from.

That's fine. I'm not really talking directly about the op.