The friends of Ben thread

[Ben Kenobi]

More specifically, BK's form of bad faith entails a basic lack of reverence for truth itself.

Again, please define, 'hyperconservative Catholicism'.

You claim I am 'advancing my own cause'. This relies upon the statement that what I teach is contrary to what the Catholic church teaches. Is this true?

Again - the Catholic church does teach that contraception is wrong, that abortion is wrong and that homosexual desires are disordered and that sodomy is sinful.

Do I need to cite evidence of all four in order to convince you that this is in fact the case?

[Ben Kenobi]

He's currently defining 'bad faith' to you and you're doing your best to ignore it

It's his own argument. 'Dislike for his brand of hyperconservative Catholicism.'

If he chooses not to defend it, that's not on me. I think he regrets getting outed earlier in on here that this is a dispute of ideology not aesthetics. Until he addresses this, there's not much to discuss here.

[Elok]

By "Hyperconservative Catholicism" I mean "a form of Catholicism more ardently jingoistic than the Papacy itself advocates." In particular, you show no remorse about misdeeds the Church apologized for ages ago. So, while you eventually admitted that the actual Crusaders bore responsibility for the Fourth Crusade, you still insist that "the Byzantines started it," on the bizarre grounds that "one dethroned, exiled Greek prince" is somehow equivalent to "the actions of the entire Empire." If this same standard were applied to a situation in the West--if somebody were silly enough to claim that a defrocked cardinal represented Catholicism, say--you would rightly throw a fit. But since, in this case, applying common sense would be detrimental to your own chosen cause, you refuse to see it. Which brings us back to "bad faith."

Oh, and I mentioned the practice of baptizing, then murdering, Indian babies. Your response was to bring up the Lady of Guadelupe, as if that made up for it. So, I guess all we need is for someone to have a vision at an abortion clinic...

[kentonio]

Ben, no-one gives a **** about your stupid religious extremism, everyone just hates on you because you're a lying, unscrupulous *******. Maybe if you stopped lying and being an unscrupulous ******* people would be nicer to you.

Seriously, no-one but you gives a **** about you being a Catholic. There's a reason why people don't mass hate on other Catholics, just you. Put your ****ing victim card away and try being a decent human being for a change.

[Ben Kenobi]

By "Hyperconservative Catholicism" I mean "a form of Catholicism more ardently jingoistic than the Papacy itself advocates."

So you're conceding that the definition has nothing to do with the four things that I mentioned?

Interesting tack.

I strongly disagree that folks hate me here because of what I said about the Fourth Crusade.

In particular, you show no remorse about misdeeds the Church apologized for ages ago.

'Show no remorse' is a feeling. YOU feel this way, and characterize my 'feeling' as lacking. This is not an empirical definition.

So, while you eventually admitted that the actual Crusaders bore responsibility for the Fourth Crusade

The Crusaders are responsible for looting and burning Constantinople. The Greek Prince himself is responsible for them getting to Constantinople. So yes, the blame is shared. I am sorry that you have a hard time accepting historical truth, but that's the truth.

, you still insist that "the Byzantines started it," on the bizarre grounds that "one dethroned, exiled Greek prince" is somehow equivalent to "the actions of the entire Empire."

Pure distortion. Yes, the former Byzantine Greek Emperor is responsible for the Crusaders getting to Constantinople. What does it say about the Greeks themselves that they brought tragedy upon themselves through their own treachery? Or are you defending the ex-Emperor?

If this same standard were applied to a situation in the West--if somebody were silly enough to claim that a defrocked cardinal represented Catholicism

Who do you think Henry VIII is? What did he do?

you would rightly throw a fit.

Indeed. At Henry VIII, the true source of the treachery. Why do you not condemn the ex-Emperor?

Oh, and I mentioned the practice of baptizing, then murdering, Indian babies. Your response was to bring up the Lady of Guadelupe, as if that made up for it.

I contend that the Church never taught what you claim she taught, and that the Church's actual teachings are quite different.

[Elok]

Come to think of it, how many other practicing Catholics do we have here? Felch is one, and I know from meeting him in person that he takes it at least somewhat seriously, even if it doesn't always show. Who else?

[Elok]

Oh, and the practice of putting egregiously false [bracketed] quotes in your sigs doesn't help.

[kentonio]

Guy is, isn't he?

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, no-one gives a **** about your stupid religious extremism

Yeah, they do. Everyone cites that as the first thing they hate. Usually one of the four things I cited and something along the lines of how medieval my beliefs are in these Enlightened times.

Sheesh. This isn't hard to fathom.

Maybe if you stopped lying and being an unscrupulous ******* people would be nicer to you.

People cite my beliefs and my faith as a lie. So yeah, it is about the Church.

Seriously, no-one but you gives a **** about you being a Catholic.

Everyone cares.

There's a reason why people don't mass hate on other Catholics, just you.

I was unaware of any regular Catholic posters here save me.

Put your ****ing victim card away and try being a decent human being for a change.

Fine - give me a list of things you think I ought to do in order to change people's opinions of me.

[Elok]

Guy is, isn't he?

No, atheist.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh, and the practice of putting egregiously false [bracketed] quotes in your sigs doesn't help.

Wow, uptight.

[DaShi]

Come to think of it, how many other practicing Catholics do we have here? Felch is one, and I know from meeting him in person that he takes it at least somewhat seriously, even if it doesn't always show. Who else?

I was until Lent a while back.

[kentonio]

Yeah, they do. Everyone cites that as the first thing they hate.

Let's do a poll. The first thing I hate about you is that you're a barefaced liar. Gosh, you're already wrong, see.

Usually one of the four things I cited and something along the lines of how medieval my beliefs are in these Enlightened times.

You'd get a fair bit of stick for some of your less pleasant beliefs, but if you didn't tell constant lies then you'd get a lot less abuse.

Sheesh. This isn't hard to fathom.

No, you're right. You've been told by at least a dozen different people here at different times and you've just ignored them every time while crying about how it's all an anti-Catholic conspiracy.

People cite my beliefs and my faith as a lie. So yeah, it is about the Church.

No, it's about you being a liar.

I was unaware of any regular Catholic posters here save me.

Which says an awful lot about you. When other people tell you they are Catholic you tell them they aren't, because their beliefs are slightly different to yours.

Fine - give me a list of things you think I ought to do in order to change people's opinions of me.

Just stop telling lies. We're all wrong about stuff sometimes, but there's nothing wrong with that as long as you can accept it and learn from it. When someone gives you concrete evidence that you're wrong, and you start weaselling and creating strawmen and inventing 'facts', it just makes you look like a dishonest *****.

[kentonio]

No, atheist.

Oh right, am I thinking of Rah? Someone was arguing with Ben about it the other day.

[DaShi]

Ben's a idol worshiper anyway.