Republicans have once again demonstrated that they are the party...

[PLATO]

He always knew his true enemy.

I really hope that this is the truth here. If Obama was certain that there would be no default, then that makes his position more tenable. How could he be certain though. I know that Boehner may have made some assurances on default, but it was pure recklessness for the democrats to say "Go ahead...we ain't gonna even talk to you."

To be fair...it was recklessness on the Republicans part to put us in that situation to begin with, but in the end they showed that they NEVER intended to let a default happen. The democrats showed the opposite.

What is truly sad is that there are major problems of sustainability facing the country and that those problems need to be addressed. It is frightening that one party felt the only way to get a real discussion was to adopt the "nuclear" strategy.

[PLATO]

No, it's like someone holding a grenade and threatening to pull the pin, if it goes off, they get hit by the blast too. The only way that threat has any weight is if you believe the other person is crazy and suicidal, and the Dems rightly gambled that there weren't nearly enough crazies in the GOP to let it go that far.

Hmmm...That actually is a better analogy. Still, even as you admit...it was a gamble.

[PLATO]

Your most honest post on how you actually feel?

[kentonio]

I really hope that this is the truth here. If Obama was certain that there would be no default, then that makes his position more tenable. How could he be certain though. I know that Boehner may have made some assurances on default, but it was pure recklessness for the democrats to say "Go ahead...we ain't gonna even talk to you."

To be fair...it was recklessness on the Republicans part to put us in that situation to begin with, but in the end they showed that they NEVER intended to let a default happen. The democrats showed the opposite.

Things are rarely how they seem. Have a read of this.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...own-98518.html

What is truly sad is that there are major problems of sustainability facing the country and that those problems need to be addressed. It is frightening that one party felt the only way to get a real discussion was to adopt the "nuclear" strategy.

You can blame that **** Grover Norquist for most of this. When you force one of the parties to adopt a position of 'no tax increases ever', then you don't really have anything to negotiate with, especially when you equally refuse to move on defense spending and oil/farm subsidies. There are certainly people on the left who want to never cut any entitlements, but there are plenty of moderates who are ok with it as long as the other side are giving something back in return.

It's not a negotiation when the sacrifice is one sided, which is why this whole drama started in the first place. The GOP just need to tell Norquist to go **** himself (which increasing numbers actually are now, thank god), and accept that the cost of entitlement cuts is going to be defense cuts and some tax rises. Then everyone can go back to quibbling over the small details like normal.

[DinoDoc]

especially when you equally refuse to move on defense spending and oil/farm subsidies.

Let's not pretend that these are the real drivers of the debt. There's certainly room to cut in the defense budget but the real money is in entitlements and their growth.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I really hope that this is the truth here. If Obama was certain that there would be no default, then that makes his position more tenable. How could he be certain though. I know that Boehner may have made some assurances on default, but it was pure recklessness for the democrats to say "Go ahead...we ain't gonna even talk to you."

To be fair...it was recklessness on the Republicans part to put us in that situation to begin with, but in the end they showed that they NEVER intended to let a default happen. The democrats showed the opposite.

What is truly sad is that there are major problems of sustainability facing the country and that those problems need to be addressed. It is frightening that one party felt the only way to get a real discussion was to adopt the "nuclear" strategy.

He knew all along that he had plenty of time. His threats of what could happpen and potential default were as overblown as his complaints about impending doom when his sequester cuts were enacted. His plans always were to maximize the potential impacts and pain to be laid at the feet of the GOP. That and to sew the seeds of "OMFG the sky is falling, default is coming, cats and dogs living with each other, run for the hills err.... on second thought don't do that cause thats where the crazy facist, gun owning, bible thumpers are that caused all this."

No what is truly sad is that he has used his bully pulpit to enact this farce and make it his goal to further divide the country in doing so. Viewing a sizable if not majority portion of the country that hold opinions counter to his own as the enemy. Amature and sad. But again if he is amature and sad, what does that say about the hapless GOP who decided to walk blithely into the trap.

[Sava]

Let's not pretend that these are the real drivers of the debt.

They aren't. The tax cuts are most responsible... aside from the economy tanking.

[MrFun]

STOP IT

Stop what?

[MrFun]

I guess you don't really understand "starting points" in negotiation very well do you? Of course, the President was not willing to open the door to securing America's future. He only wanted a political "win" and was willing to devastate the country to get one. Obviously, since they did vote to avoid default, the Republicans were not willing to devastate the country to get what they wanted. This is the real facts. The Republicans offered alternative after alternative to get some movement on solving our problems...each one being shot down without negotiation. In the end, they voted for the country getting nothing. If they had not let the childish President get his way, then Obama and the Democrats would have let the country default before they would have lifted a finger to solve our problems. This is why the Republicans were the grown ups here. It is really simple to see if you take off the Obama Rose colored glasses and quit drinking the sticky dark brown ale of democratic infalliability.

I understand now that you've been trolling (thanks Imran).

[kentonio]

Let's not pretend that these are the real drivers of the debt.

You're talking hundreds of billions of dollars over a decade. In a total of trillions that might seem like small change, but those are exactly the kind of cuts that can make a real and significant difference without cutting the feet out from under the most vulnerable members of society.

There's certainly room to cut in the defense budget but the real money is in entitlements and their growth.

You spend 47% of the worlds entire defense budget, you're damn right there's room for cuts. You spend $682b a year. Your closest rival spends $166b.

Here's the deficit..

Obama Deficits
FY 2015*: $577 billion
FY 2014*: $744 billion
FY 2013*: $973 billion
FY 2012: $1,087 billion
FY 2011: $1,300 billion
FY 2010: $1,294 billion

I wonder what you could do with that half a trillion dollars a year in needless defense spending..

[MrFun]

I do agree that the "crisis" was manufactured. I do not agree that there are no problems to solve. The democrats have continually "kicked the can down the road" and have for several years now refused to have substantive talks on how to solve our problems. Each year Social security comes one year closer to insolvency...each year unsustainable levels of spending keep right on going...each year the debt becomes a heavier burden to the nation. How do you try and get someone who will not do anything to solve problems to negotiate? The Republicans had no other choice than to manufacture a "crisis" to try and force something to happen. Even then, facing a crisis, the democrats would rather destroy the country than make the hard choices on how to secure the future.

I have a hard time understanding why everyone one says "But it was a manufactured crisis!" This seems to be the democratic talking point and, as usual you have bought into it, and my response to that is "Yeah it was. Work the problem and they won't be necessary."

Even given the "manufactured" nature of this crisis, it was clear that the Republicans had no desire to go over the cliff. It is equally clear that the democrats would have done so.

Actually, didn't the Democrats try to negotiate with Republicans over the years, multiple times and no one got anywhere?

[kentonio]

Amature and sad. But again if he is amature and sad

Please learn to spell amateur.

[MrFun]

Let's not pretend that these are the real drivers of the debt. There's certainly room to cut in the defense budget but the real money is in entitlements and their growth.

Yeah - let's just scapegoat the poor for our country's ENTIRE debt.

Forget war, the military-industry complex, corporate lobbying, ridiculous tax cuts for wealthy, systemic tax evasion by wealthy, and corporate welfare.

[MrFun]

PLATO and others - you might want to educate yourselves on "false equivalency."

Stop being mealy-mouthed and wishy-washy and recognize when in fact, there really is only one side sometimes that is truly at fault.

[DinoDoc]

You spend 47% of the worlds entire defense budget, you're damn right there's room for cuts.

It is approximately 19% of the Federal budget.