Will Obamacare get its act together in time?

[DinoDoc]

@ Sava: I'm not here to debate you, only laugh at you.

[Sava]

Okay...that makes more sense. When I speak of conservatives, I am definitely not talking Tea party...I am talking fiscal conservatives. "Modern" conservatism = Tea Party...gotcha.

I am glad to see some reason in this post and an acknowledgement that extreme liberalism has its dangers as well. If I was able to counsel liberals, it would be to not let the hatred of the far right drive them to the far left. That type of knee jerk reaction seems to be quite popular right now.

I know you aren't with the crazies. I'm doing this for your benefit. I want you and people like you to be relevant again. The crazies are hurting mainstream Republicans more than anyone else. I'm on your side. They've hijacked your party. They use your own terms and phrases to justify policies than have little to do with actual conservatism.

And no, calling them out on this isn't going to make me support the PETA or code pink people.

[Sava]

@ Sava: I'm not here to debate you, only laugh at you.

I'm just doing my part.

[Ben Kenobi]

Obamacare is still funded and the GOP is on the verge of being forced to give away the one victory they were able to achieve in deficit reduction during the Obama years.

That's not the fault of Cruz, but a fault of Boehner et al if they cave.

Obamacare has also seen a tic up in popularity (for the first time ever) as a result of Cruz's strategy.

DD, I'm surprised you believe what they are feeding you when you are so solid on other issues. Did it ever occur to you that there's a reason they are trying to split you off from Cruz et al? You're the target audience.

This was going to happen anyway. The only thing that has happened is that all of the oxygen is being sucked away from the stories detailing the embarrassing debacle the law is and all attention is focused on the shutdown.

I disagree with this - I think that Cruz did a service with the filibuster and that the reason we have a shutdown is because Obama is insisting on full funding for Obamacare or nothing. He looks like a petulant wuss. We can win this if we hold together.

Meaningless poppycock. Principles are fine but without a strategy to move the ball of public debate in your direction you might as well stick your thumb up your arse for all the good you'd be doing.

Strategies working so far. How's the cave to Obama strategy workin' out fer ya?

Then why are you helping to save the law?

Why are you trying to get it fully funded?

[Ben Kenobi]

I am glad to see some reason in this post and an acknowledgement that extreme liberalism has its dangers as well. If I was able to counsel liberals, it would be to not let the hatred of the far right drive them to the far left. That type of knee jerk reaction seems to be quite popular right now.

Personally, I'd be wary of Sava agreeing with me just as I would with Mr. Fun and for the same reasons.

[PLATO]

Personally, I'd be wary of Sava agreeing with me just as I would with Mr. Fun and for the same reasons.

meh...Sava's not so bad. If you read between the lines, he is not as lefty as he would like you to think.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sava's not so bad. If you read between the lines, he is not as lefty as he would like you to think.

I was his friend for quite awhile. I just found it funny you two commiserating as to 'opposing nutjobs like me'.

[Sava]

meh...Sava's not so bad. If you read between the lines, he is not as lefty as he would like you to think.

Finally, someone gets it.

Especially with economics, I'm probably the most pure capitalist on these boards... in the sense that I promote the principles that Adam Smith wrote about... not what passes for "capitalist" today.

I complain about the abuses of big business... that's not a left/right issue. For some reason, it gets confused as one.

This probably belongs in the Wal-Mart thread... but stuff like low wages actually costs us more ($7 billion according to this. Who was an advocate for high wages? Henry Ford. THAT COMMIE BASTARD!


My problem is that I'm a raging asshole. But then again, someone has to be.

[Ben Kenobi]

My problem is that I'm a raging *******. But then again, someone has to be.

Apparently Sava is into asses. Who knew?

[PLATO]

I was his friend for quite awhile. I just found it funny you two commiserating as to 'opposing nutjobs like me'.

Well Ben...you are principled and that is good. I do believe that you have a hard time understanding the implications of some of the principles you stand for and that you would actually disagree yourself with some of the things you argue for if you were to simply think it through and listen to what people are actually trying to tell you.

I believe that you are basically a good person...contrary to what many say about you. I also believe that you get so caught up in the letter of your beliefs that you fail to understand the spirit behind them.

So...where does that leave someone debating with you? It leaves them no choice but to take you at what you are saying...and many times that makes you a nutjob. Sorry.

[Sava]

My newfound issues with BK are a personal matter...

He's always had horrid views, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But in addition to believing in horrible things, he proved himself to be horrible and disrespectful in the way he treats others... and big surprise, also refuses to take responsibility for his actions.

[DinoDoc]

That's not the fault of Cruz, but a fault of Boehner et al if they cave.

It's the fault of going into battle without a realistic idea of what the endgame of the strategy was or could be. The fault here lies in two places. The GOP establishment and the people who convinced the base that a defund strategy was possible or advisable. IMO, A smarter approach for the CR would have been perhaps to chip away at its funding by pushing for a repeal of the medical device tax (wide bi-partisan support exists for this) and force the Administration to enforce the anti-fraud provisions of the very law they are fighting to the death to protect and to use the debt ceiling vote to try and move the Obamacare ball further in our direction while pushing for greater spending controls and/or entitlement reform.

DD, I'm surprised you believe what they are feeding you when you are so solid on other issues.

I've stated my views on the whining about Cruz here and other places and see no need to go into it yet again. I merely disagree with strategy not goal or intent. Criticism in this instance is merely seeking to correct wrong headed behavior.

I disagree with this

Ben: The problems we've seen thus far with O'care were baked into the cake from the beginning but no one is talking about them while the shutdown is going on. The Democrats were on the defensive before this episode happened. Positions are now reversed. Now I believe based on historical reasons that any damage from this shutdown is likely to be temporary but the first rule of politics is if your opponent is in the process of slitting his own wrists you either hand him a knife or get out of the way but you never try and stop him from doing so. This shutdown is the GOP's attempt to stop the Democrats from slitting their own wrists.

We can win this if we hold together.

Cruz: We don't have the votes yet to defund Obamacare

I guarantee you that grassroots tsunami he was calling for hasn't arrived if the polling is any indication.

Strategies working so far.

a) Can you provide even one concrete example of success by following this path?

b) There was no strategy. That's part of the problem here. No one had any real idea what the end game they want is.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well Ben...you are principled and that is good. I do believe that you have a hard time understanding the implications of some of the principles you stand for and that you would actually disagree yourself with some of the things you argue for if you were to simply think it through and listen to what people are actually trying to tell you.

Ok, what principles do you believe I would change my position on if I were to listen to what you have to say? I am a convert. I have changed my position on important principles before when I was convinced by others that what I believed was incorrect.

Sell me on your thoughts.

[Ben Kenobi]

He's always had horrid views, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But in addition to believing in horrible things, he proved himself to be horrible and disrespectful in the way he treats others... and big surprise, also refuses to take responsibility for his actions.

Sava, between me and you, I was not the one telling you to make a choice between friends. I stand by what I said. The demands made on you were unreasonable and unfair and I do not support the ultimatum you were given. Our dispute really had nothing to do with you and it was not right you were dragged into it.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's the fault of going into battle without a realistic idea of what the endgame of the strategy was or could be. The fault here lies in two places. The GOP establishment and the people who convinced the base that a defund strategy was possible or advisable. IMO, A smarter approach for the CR would have been perhaps to chip away at its funding by pushing for a repeal of the medical device tax (wide bi-partisan support exists for this) and force the Administration to enforce the anti-fraud provisions of the very law they are fighting to the death to protect and to use the debt ceiling vote to try and move the Obamacare ball further in our direction while pushing for greater spending controls and/or entitlement reform.

I don't think that's sufficient. I think decoupling the individual mandate is reasonable, or defanging the IRS enforcement mechanisms. That's really the core of it - if people do not have to pay then that will solve the majority of the problem. Costs will rise so that the folks who are enrolled will bear the costs for their own treatment. That's the strategy here.

I merely disagree with strategy not goal or intent. Criticism in this instance is merely seeking to correct wrong headed behavior.

I disagree that Obamacare is becoming more popular. Arguing that the strategy should be changed because you perceive it is becoming more popular is evidence I believe is, in fact, incorrect. We should make decisions based on correct information - this feels like Tet to me.

The problems we've seen thus far with O'care were baked into the cake from the beginning but no one is talking about them while the shutdown is going on. The Democrats were on the defensive before this episode happened. Positions are now reversed.

What makes you think this? We've pitched everything possible at Obama and his negotiation position has been 'scorched earth'. The only correct negotiation response to the president is the Cruz strategy.

This shutdown is the GOP's attempt to stop the Democrats from slitting their own wrists.

It's got nothing to do with the GOP. This shutdown is Obama's attempt to overturn everything. He wants the sequester lifted, OCare fully funded, debt limit lifted. He walked into the negotiations by tossing out Amnesty as something that needed to be included.

This is not a negotation. The correct response is the Cruz response.

I guarantee you that grassroots tsunami he was calling for hasn't arrived if the polling is any indication.

I disagree that we'll get polling showing such published.

a) Can you provide even one concrete example of success by following this path?

Well lets see. Sequester is intact. We're 2 days away from hitting the debt limit and not only is Sequester intact, but the government itself is still shut down. We've had 2 weeks of a 17 percent cut in government spending and are two days away from a massive surplus.

b) There was no strategy. That's part of the problem here. No one had any real idea what the end game they want is.

The strategy is to strip out the individual mandate.