The Gold Plated Ambulance

[Ben Kenobi]

None that I know of

Hence my concern. I believe that where there is substantial doubt that the default is to save the life of the person.

And, once again, Schiavo's case doesn't qualify as she never was terminally ill, wasn't brain dead, etc. All she required was nutrition, and there is no justification for starvaing a patient.

Is there a piece of paper saying she wants to live in that situation and hold her husband to his vow until he or she dies?

In any case, a doctor would have a duty to provide nutrition to a patient even with a DNR.

A marriage vow gets trumped by the wishes of the married - its called an amendment.

Marriage had very little to do with Schiavo's case. She was a pawn for folks like you to push euthanasia on disabled folks.

I dont know why you're bringing the state into this

It was the state who killed her - the state that prevented her parents from taking care of her. Taking the state out of it would have saved Terri's life. She was a victim of a state approved execution.

, it wasn't mentioned in the Garden when Adam and Eve were told about their roles as husband and wife.

And that role as husband is to stay with his wife and not to abandon her for another lover.

You used those verses to accuse polygamists of sin

And what exactly is Schiavo? Married to one woman and taking up another.

including Jesus' fathers

Umm, Jesus's fathers? Who exactly do you think were Jesus's Fathers?

- and now you ignore them to hand the spouse's authority over to the parents.

What spouse? Oh, you mean Michael Schiavo who had already abandoned his wife for his lover.

And that includes ignoring the wishes of people who become brain dead?

She wasn't brain dead.

Our 95 year old grandmother refuses to eat, lets force feed her?

So lets starve her instead?

The Bible shows guys "cheating" without condemnation from God

So you think cheating on your wife is a-ok. Wow.

So his alleged cheating

Nothing alleged about it.

Why didn't he just walk away or let the family take over? That would have been the easy thing to do, right? No, he fought to pull the plug - maybe he was telling the truth about what she wanted.

No, here's what I think. She was inconvenient and got in the way of him and his life. This way he kills her, she's dead, he keeps the 300k settlement, gets married to his lover and lives happily ever after.

And he did it for her

He did it for himself. Gotta admit it worked out great for him, did it not?

I asked this before and you wouldn't answer, when did this "cheating" happen?

Christ, I already told you and posted a link to his lover and her accoutn.

If it was more than a decade after his wife's brain stopped working, then you are ignoring the decade he gave to her.

I was unaware that marital vows cease after a decade. "Until a decade do we part".

By then she was presumed dead

So we can kill all the patients who have alzheimers for more than 10 years?

What would you do if you were him?

If he were me, he would have stayed with Terri and done his best to look after her. He would have let her parents spend as much time with her as they wished.

If I were him, I would have bailed because I no longer loved Terri and wanted to move on with my life.

She wants to die and you're keeping her alive and angering everyone

He's not angering anyone by keeping her alive. He's angering everyone by trying to kill her.

You think he did that for ****s and giggles?

He stood to benefit from her death, and he wanted to move on with his life and Terri was an impediment to the whole process.

I think he gave her time and lost hope she'd recover, apparently 8 years before starting the process of ending her life - and that took another 7 years. So when did this cheating occur?

If he gave up hope on her recovering, the solution is to leave her, not kill her.

easier to type than permanent vegetative state or whatever they called it

Two very different medical states. One requires use of a respirator, and Catholic doctrine treats the two very differently (because they are not the same).

Before her brain trauma

Then it's up to Michael to prove it by providing a source for this claim in writing from Terri prior. No proof no claim.

Losing someone to brain death is not agony? Years of being torn between their desire to end it and the hope for their recovery would be agony for me and it would be for you too. Right?

Would killing my wife make that agony go away? No. The agony isn't in the waiting and in the care, but in losing the wife.

And what if you told her not to leave you in that situation?

I would expect her to leave and start a new life.

You could be saving people in need of organs

There's a difference between some function and no function. No function - chop me up. Some, keep me alive. No respirator.

At his age, I'd hope so. If he wants children he'd better have them before he gets too old.

Then the solution is to file for divorce and say sayonara. .

Those are the words you're putting into Terri Schiavo's mouth.

I'm arguing that lacking actual written evidence we shouldn't take someone off a respirator. In Terri's case, this didn't apply as she wasn't terminally ill, nor was she on a respirator. So there's absolutely no medical justification for starving her to death.

[Berzerker]

Marriage had very little to do with Schiavo's case. She was a pawn for folks like you to push euthanasia on disabled folks.

I dont support euthanasia for the disabled (you're projecting your bias into their lives), of course its about marriage, her husband knew better than you about her wishes and he was the one with the duty to fulfill them. He did and that makes you mad because you think she wanted to be kept alive like that.

It was the state who killed her - the state that prevented her parents from taking care of her. Taking the state out of it would have saved Terri's life. She was a victim of a state approved execution.

so I'll ask again, why are you bringing the state into it?

didn't the state intervene against his and her wishes for 7 years?

Umm, Jesus's fathers? Who exactly do you think were Jesus's Fathers?

He's supposed to be from David's line, and Abraham, and...

What spouse? Oh, you mean Michael Schiavo who had already abandoned his wife for his lover.

prove it, when did he "cheat"?

And that role as husband is to stay with his wife and not to abandon her for another lover.

Unless she didn't want him to leave her in that situation, its her authority you've given away

I'm not angering anyone by keeping her alive. I am angering everyone by trying to kill her.

Thats what I said:

What would you do if you were him? She wants to die and you're keeping her alive and angering everyone when you give up and follow her instructions.

You chopped off the end of that

If he were me, he would have stayed with Terri and done his best to look after her. He would have let her parents spend as much time with her as they wished.

If I were him, I would have bailed because I no longer loved Terri and wanted to move on with my life.

So you would have ignored her wish to pull the plug?

Christ, I already told you and posted a link to his lover and her accoutn.

So read your link and answer my question. When did he "cheat"? Before or after he decided to start the process of ending her life?

So you think cheating on your wife is a-ok. Wow.

I didn't write the Bible, take it up with God, and Abraham, and David, and Jesus.

So lets starve her instead?

Grandma is refusing to eat, she's starving herself. Do you force feed her?

He did it for himself. Gotta admit it worked out great for him, did it not?

How do you know it wasn't her plan?

So we can kill all the patients who have alzheimers for more than 10 years?

she didn't have Alzheimers

He stood to benefit from her death, and he wanted to move on with his life and Terri was an impediment to the whole process.

But you said it was easier for him to walk away and let her family take over, now you're saying he benefited from the 7 years of legal hassle and angering everyone?

If he gave up hope on her recovering, the solution is to leave her, not kill her.

The solution was fulfilling her wish to pull the plug

she didn't want him to leave her like that and he didn't.

[Ben Kenobi]

I dont support euthanasia for the disabled (you're projecting your bias into their lives), I merely pointed out the irony of people opposed to euthanasia complaining about how she was starved to death.

She was starved to death. There's nothing ironic about it. She was being fed and looked after.

And of course its about marriage, her husband knew better than you about her wishes and he was the one with the duty to fulfill them.

Which wife? Oh, you're talking about the one he abandoned.

He did and that makes you mad because you think she wanted to be kept alive like that.

It makes me mad because now there's nothing that can be done for her.

so I'll ask again, why are you bringing the state into it?

I want the state out of it, so that her parents could have looked after her.

didn't the state intervene against his and her wishes for 7 years?

No. The state intervened to ensure that she died.

He's supposed to be from David's line, and Abraham, and

Ahh, forefathers. Ok. I was a bit mystified in that.

prove it, when did he "cheat"?

Already have provided a source.

So you would have ignored her wish to pull the plug?

I couldn't in good conscience starve her.

So read your link and answer my question. When did he "cheat"? Before or after he decided to start the process of ending her life?

He cheated on her before.

I didn't write the Bible, take it up with God, and Abraham, and David, and Jesus.

Wow, I didn't know you converted!

Grandma is refusing to eat, she's starving herself. Do you force feed her?

What's the issue there? Why is she doing this?

How do you know it wasn't her plan?

Because there's no written evidence for it?

she didn't have Alzheimers

Does the duration of her health issues matter?

But you said it was easier for him to walk away and let her family take over, now you're saying he benefited from the 7 years of legal hassle and angering everyone?

Yes, he had a financial interest in ensuring she died.

The solution was fulfilling her wish to pull the plug

Where did she say she wanted this?

You're spending your whole argument saying, "Terri this, Terri that". but there's no written evidence for it.

[Berzerker]

I couldn't in good conscience starve her.

the means of her death was dictated by the state (and people opposed to euthanasia - still dont see the irony?), but could you in good conscience ignore her wish to die?

Where did she say she wanted this?

You're spending your whole argument saying, "Terri this, Terri that". but there's no written evidence for it.

Thats what her husband and others said, why should I accept your opinion over theirs? You're speaking for her, not me.

Because there's no written evidence for it?

so you know what she wanted because she didn't write it down for you?

He cheated on her before.

its your accusation, its your link, prove it

It makes me mad because now there's nothing that can be done for her.

you'd be happier if she was still bedridden hooked up to a feeding tube?

[Ben Kenobi]

the means of her death was dictated by the state

She wasn't terminally ill and yet euthanasia activists consider her a 'poster child'. See the irony yet? Her actual health was just fine prior to her starvation.

could you in good conscience ignore her wish to die?

My job is to actually assess things like that. The best answer I can see from a dispassionate examination of the source material is that declaring this to be her 'wish' is dubious. There's disagreements among her closest relatives and there's a lack of substantiating evidence.

Thats what her husband and others said, why should I accept your opinion over theirs? You're speaking for her, not me.

What I'm saying is exactly what her parents say. Why should I accept your opinion over theirs?

so you know what she wanted because she didn't write it down for you?

She didn't write it down so there's no concrete evidence for this being her desire.

its your accusation, its your link, prove it

RTFT.

you'd be happier if she was still bedridden hooked up to a feeding tube?

Absolutely, yes.

As for your grandmother, what's going on with her? Why is she refusing to eat?

[DinoDoc]

That wasn't the question I asked, DD.

Is there a piece of paper with Terri's wishes on it where she specifies that she wanted to die in the event that she was incapacitated?

Of what use would a piece of paper you'd only accuse the man of forging had been. The issue was litigated up and down the legal system and objective observers came to the conclusion that yes the husband probably had a better idea of what the wife's wishes in this matter were than her parents did. We also aren't talking about her being merely incapacitated, Ben. I've linked you to a report detailing the results of the autopsy before. She had no hope of ever recovering.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of what use would a piece of paper you'd only accuse the man of forging had been.

This can be examined.

The issue was litigated up and down the legal system and objective observers

The same folks who believe that she was suffering and the best way to end suffering is to kill someone? Objective? Hardly.

I've linked you to a report detailing the results of the autopsy before. She had no hope of ever recovering.

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You don't starve people.

[Berzerker]

You said there wasn't a shred of evidence, now there's no concrete evidence?

and it dont matter if she wrote it down, if thats what she told him the wish remains unfulfilled if he walks away or keeps her alive - and what did you tell him? Walk away or keep her alive. To hell with what she wanted. If they discussed the matter the evidence he needs is concrete.

What I'm saying is exactly what her parents say. Why should I accept your opinion over theirs?

Aint my opinion, its what her husband and others said. Your argument is it doesn't matter what she told them, she didn't tell her parents too - your biblical principles are blowing in the wind.

[Ben Kenobi]

and it dont matter if she wrote it down

To hell with consent! You should have to have something written down in order to stop them from killing you.

[Sava]

It's one thing to watch BK argue with liberal/lefty posters. But if DD and Berz can't even get him to budge an inch... well, that tells me BK has some serious mental issues going on.

[Berzerker]

To hell with consent! You should have to have something written down in order to stop them from killing you.

She gave her consent and the state eventually agreed - but having it written down may matter to the state, it dont matter to the people already aware of her wishes - they not only had her consent, they had her request to die. How do they walk away? I've asked what you would do if your loved one told you not to leave them in such a situation and you danced around the question. That says it all, Ben... You'd be in agony, torn between fulfilling her wish and a personal conflict with pulling the plug - which of those two are selfish? No Honey, you gotta "live" like that because thats what I want.

It's one thing to watch BK argue with liberal/lefty posters. But if DD and Berz can't even get him to budge an inch... well, that tells me BK has some serious mental issues going on.

Euthanizing the unable is a slippery slope for the disabled

[Sava]

Euthanizing the unable is a slippery slope for the disabled

I agree there are concerns. But in general, I don't believe in slippery slopes. I have never been made aware of a single example of one ever existing in real life.

[Berzerker]

yup, cant let slippery slope arguments get in the way of individual cases

I have no doubt Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to be stuck in that situation and that she would have wanted her husband to let go and remarry and start a family.

[rah]

None of that matters to Ben. The only thing important is what he thinks. Thank god we don't live in a universe where Ben gets to make up the laws and decides what people wanted.

[Sava]

None of that matters to Ben. The only thing important is what he thinks. Thank god we don't live in a universe where Ben gets to make up the laws and decides what people wanted.

If TV science shows are correct, there are countless number of universes where he rules the world.