Pope sends direct message to Ben

[giblets]

Clearly that makes a compelling case for the mass murder of tens of thousands of people and no one should expect any further evidence before they believe you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Elizabeth resisted the demands of parliament to execute Mary for 18 and a half years.

She still made the decision to execute her.

She lived in a time where being overthrown would almost certainly have led to her own death, yet she couldn't bring herself to order the death of a family member until the endless plotting left her with no choice.

She still made the choice to execute her. That's the problem. I get that she was reluctant to do so, but in the end - she still did it. That makes her a kinslayer.

I did a little googling to see where this nonsense

The citation is in the book I cited. So yeah, I did my homework too.

I'm happy to discuss with Fr. Marsden.

If you'd like to disagree with this priest and pit your degree against his Masters and PhD, you can contact him at stmaryschorley@yahoo.co.uk.

Thank you.

the pope put out a hit on a Christian monarch and he did it quite openly. Conspiracy to murder is not exactly a Christian value last time I checked.

It's called excommunication. Since you like Marsden so much, why don't you email the contents of your post to him and see what he says?

[Ben Kenobi]

no, you haven't cited evidence of anything.

I cited the book with the claim. You can look it up in the library.

it's been said before, but you must be the worst history teacher ever.

Given that you consider wikipedia to be a primary source, I can't imagine who you would consider a good teacher.

so fewer than 70 is not exhaustive. let me know when you find evidence of the other 74,930+ martyrs.

Call me when you find evidence of your 29,500.

[Ben Kenobi]

Clearly that makes a compelling case for the mass murder of tens of thousands of people and no one should expect any further evidence before they believe you.

It's not my claim, gribbler. Believe it or do not believe it, but I didn't just 'make it up'. I know that's hard for you to believe. If you're going to attack the thesis then it would be helpful to attack the thesis and not me. Attacking me accomplishes what? Absolutely nothing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, you've lost. You keep losing but for some totally unfathomable reason you're completely incapable of accepting this.

What have I lost?

Elizabeth executed a ton of people for the 'crime' of being Catholic. We've established:

1, that she did in fact do so. (contrary to what everyone else here said)
2, that the persecution was quite extensive in Elizabethan England).

I've accomplished my primary goal here. Have you?

[kentonio]

She still made the choice to execute her. That's the problem. I get that she was reluctant to do so, but in the end - she still did it. That makes her a kinslayer.

Kinslayer?

The citation is in the book I cited. So yeah, I did my homework too.

There are many, many terrible books in the world. A lot more than there are good ones. "I read it in a book" is about as useful a supporting argument as "A guy in a bar told me".

I'm happy to discuss with Fr. Marsden.

Be sure to post the email chain here please.

t's called excommunication. Since you like Marsden so much, why don't you email the contents of your post to him and see what he says?

Did you manage to skim over the quote I posted where the pope exhorts people to kill Elizabeth. An act which he describes as not a sin but actually something that would gain them 'merit' and a 'glorious action'?

I very much doubt whether Fr Marsden would feel any need to try and defend this. Most Catholics accept that the church is far from infallible, and the popes of the past especially so.

[Ben Kenobi]

There are many, many terrible books in the world.

There's a difference between, "citing a book", and between "citing no source whatsoever". I have cited a source. That you dislike the source doesn't make it invalid.

Be sure to post the email chain here please.

You should post the entirety of the contents of your post and see what he has to say about that. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Did you manage to skim over the quote I posted where the pope exhorts people to kill Elizabeth. An act which he describes as not a sin but actually something that would gain them 'merit' and a 'glorious action'?

Did you miss the part where he stated she was excommunicated for the crime of executing innocent priests and Catholic laypeople?

I very much doubt whether Fr Marsden would feel any need to try and defend this. Most Catholics accept that the church is far from infallible, and the popes of the past especially so.

IOW, I don't have the balls to consult Fr Marsden. Good day sir!

[kentonio]

@Ben, so as expected you're pussying out. So predictable..

[Ben Kenobi]

so as expected you're pussying out. So predictable

I already consulted Fr. Marsden. Have you? Hrm, no?

Odd that.

Demanding someone live by rules that don't apply to you! How unusual!

[Ben Kenobi]

Secondly, a 'ton' of people now seems to be about 300 during a 45 year reign, or 6.66 (apt number!) a year - oh yes A TON OF PEOPLE!!!111!!1

Thirdly, when you add Henry VIII AND Liz I together, we're talking about 500 Catholic martyrs and confessors in total - let's be generous and end that at 1603 instead of 1679 and that's, oh, 7.24 deaths PER YEAR!!! HOLY ****, STOP THE PRESS - CATHOLIC GENOCIDE!!!

500 for Henry. 300+ for Liz. So, it's about 9 a year.

If we apply that logic to the 2k in the Inquisition, which ran for 350 years, that amounts to... 5.7 a year.

So the persecution under Henry and Elizabeth was nearly twice as fierce as the Inquisition.

just saving their own skin against people clearly wanting to kill them

Right, because execution > imprisonment.

Or, to put things into perspective, over 10,000 people a year are needlessly murdered with guns in the US - I think I'd rather be a catholic in Tudor England than an average Joe in the US by a very long way indeed...

Or, say, the million or so that die every year from Abortion.

[giblets]

It's not my claim, gribbler. Believe it or do not believe it, but I didn't just 'make it up'. I know that's hard for you to believe. If you're going to attack the thesis then it would be helpful to attack the thesis and not me. Attacking me accomplishes what? Absolutely nothing.

I've ridiculed the "thesis" you posted. As if a few hundred executions of nobles that could have just as easily been political in nature rather than religious (as if Henry VIII gave a **** about religious purity) demonstrates some widespread mass murder of Catholics occurred. It seems like no one is capable of complying with your request since your persecution complex causes you to interpret all disagreements as personal attacks.

[Ben Kenobi]

I've ridiculed the "thesis" you posted.

Yes, and that and a fiver buys you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

As if a few hundred executions of nobles that could have just as easily been political in nature rather than religious

Again, the Act of Supremacy shows that practicing Catholicism was actually illegal in Elizabethan England, and that priests and laypeople caught by the state practicing their faith were arrested and executed. Such laws on the books depriving Catholics of their natural rights remained on the books until Catholic Emancipation in the 19th century. Some 300 years after the laws were first passed.

We hear about the evils of the Inquisition, but we do not hear about the evils in England in the time. Why is this?

if Henry VIII gave a **** about religious purity

Oh sure. Which is why he forced people to worship him and his cult of the emperor.

It seems like no one is capable of complying with your request since your persecution complex causes you to interpret all disagreements as personal attacks.

Yawn. There's a difference between a cogent argument and saying, "That's a ridiculous argument'. Perhaps reasoning isn't your thing?

[Ben Kenobi]

it takes a mere 18 days for the shootings death toll in the US

And hours for abortion to tally the same. And your point is? That American society is less civilized today?

You must be in the extreme minority of right-wingers who don't believe in the DP. It's about the one shred of humanity that you have going for you, but I must give you that

I'm Catholic. It's right there in the catechism - that insofar as one can imprison folks effectively that satisfies the desire for public safety. I also believe that rehabilitation is possible, etc. I'm obligated to follow what the Church teaches, and that works both ways.

Would your mother have REALLY aborted you if she'd known about your disability in advance? You never answered the question.

That was asked? I didn't see the question. I'm the only prolifer in my family. Do the math.

[giblets]

Yes, and that and a fiver buys you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

You've never been to Starbucks apparently since a cup of coffee doesn't cost THAT much.

Again, the Act of Supremacy shows that practicing Catholicism was actually illegal in Elizabethan England, and that priests and laypeople caught by the state practicing their faith were arrested and executed. Such laws on the books depriving Catholics of their natural rights remained on the books until Catholic Emancipation in the 19th century. Some 300 years after the laws were first passed.

We hear about the evils of the Inquisition, but we do not hear about the evils in England in the time. Why is this?



Oh sure. Which is why he forced people to worship him and his cult of the emperor.



Yawn. There's a difference between a cogent argument and saying, "That's a ridiculous argument'. Perhaps reasoning isn't your thing?

Still no proof of your tens of thousands of executions. As long as we're engaging in speculation, I'm sure you killed and raped a girl five years ago.

[Ben Kenobi]

You've never been to Starbucks apparently since a cup of coffee doesn't cost THAT much.

Your venti with extra cream and a parasol does.