Pope sends direct message to Ben

[Ben Kenobi]

That's because you're not a woman you jackass. They think pretty much exactly the same as we do, they're as intelligent as males and have ambitions and aspirations just like males. How would you feel if someone told you that your entire role in life was to marry early, and sit at home popping out kids, cleaning and cooking for your partner?

How would I feel about it? I'd be fine with it. Not all women or men are type-A personalities. Some women (shocker here), actually prefer staying home and looking after kids. I'm not a type A personality. This should come as NO shock whatsoever.

Because personally, if society tried to tell me that was all I could have in life, I'd tell them to go **** themselves.

Bully for you - first thing - not everyone thinks or sees the world in the same way that you do.

Yes, we realize all you want in life is your own little woman slave to stay at home and look after you.

I would like a partner who doesn't think that cooking and children are 'oppressive tools of men's mind control'. And yes, I've heard that before...

Good, he's a total ***** who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children.

So it is about forcing people to accept sodomy, unlike what you previously claimed. Good - now we got *that* bull**** argument out of the way.

Funnily enough telling children lies about how they can 'convert to straightness' is not showing tolerance.

Funnily enough you're willing to enforce thoughtcrimes on other people. Contrary to what you originally stated earlier. Glad we're all on the same page now.

Stop telling lies.

What lies? Birthrate drops -- the civilization gets overrun because it no longer has the manpower to keep itself running. Happened to Rome.

The answer is quite simply that you're having sex with a different partner.

As I said, disposable sex, disposable people. Thank you for being honest Kentonio.

If you'd ever actually had sex before, you'd realize quite how idiotic a thing you're asking is.

I'm aware of it, and yes - there's been much put into about how condoms increase promiscuity.

A condom is not a magical energy barrier keeping the man and woman separated. Apart from a moments annoyance putting the damn thing on, the experience is basically no different.

Indeed. That's because you're having sex with the rubber, not the woman. Thank you Kentonio. Sex with your wife and sex with someone else is exactly the same when you wear a rubber.

Please explain precisely how a woman using the contraceptive pill impairs anyones enjoyment of sex.

Plenty of articles on it. Women on hormonal contraception have sex and have a lower libido than those off of it.

Then please explain how the use of a condom impairs anyones enjoyment of sex.

Kentonio apparently is a woman. That's surprising.

When people are waiting until their late twenties or thirties to get married, then yes the idea of not having sex until then is frankly ridiculous and unnatural.

As is the idea that whomever you have sex with unites you both in body and spirit. Right Kentonio?

You were talking about being with a wife and choosing to not have sex.

And you were talking about partnership without having sex. Yes, there are periods when my wife isn't going to be able to have sex. I'm not sure how that would be considered difficult when someone has waited a long time to have sex in the first place. Oh no. I might have to wait several months because my wife had a baby. Damn. How will I ever survive?!

The sad part is that the most likely outcome of telling a woman that she can only have sex if she is willing to have a baby as a result, is that she'll just become frustrated and end up cheating on you.

Then she can go get married to that other dude.

If that's the worst lie a partner ever tells you, then you'll be a lucky man indeed.

See - the problem with things like this - is that they are based on the conclusion that they will be happier living out the lie. So you don't want to have kids, and want sex - we talk about that. That's what adult couples are supposed to do. You asked me about compromise. You really think we couldn't work something out? There are legitimate means and this thread has talked about them.

You think that and you're wrong.

I know I'm not wrong on this.

There was a very good reason why women's sufferage movements took off in the way they did

Yes, and that women in the 50s couldn't vote.

, and why since then women have been fighting tooth and nail for social equality.

They've already achieved it. Something like 60 percent of all college grads are women. Are they happy with the results? What I'm seeing and hearing is that no - no they aren't very happy with the results.

I can only go off the image you portray here, which is of a naive misogynist.

So why are you drawing conclusions from these things and then stating, "he's obviously like it in real life", when someone who's slightly wiser might say, "hey, maybe he's just a really quiet guy, who doesn't speak out in public much, but likes Apolyton, because it gives him a chance to truly speak his mind".

Sorry but I'm not sure of the relevance of some random woman saying something silly one time.

She was my first girlfriend, and it made an impression to me at the time. I'd never heard that argument before and it mystified me.

Nope, instead I've been in long term relationships with several women over the years, living together exactly as if we were married.

Unsurprised.

So yes, I feel qualified to talk about this stuff.

About marriage? You don't know jack. Sorry. I won't insult the folks who actually are married by comparing them to you.

The difficulty is something that seems much bigger the first time, because you're not used to the experience of compromising with someone who becomes such a huge and integral part of your day to day life. It becomes a lot easier once you get used to it.

Why wouldn't I be used to such compromise? I deal with that on the same basis. The bigger issue with Marriage, is, unlike your arrangements - you can't bail when things get tough. Call me when you give it a try. It'll be an eye opener. Easier to compromise when nothing important is on the line.

No, I'm saying that creating stupid version of temptation is utterly idiotic and damaging.

You haven't understood at all.

If you're married you may feel the temptation to cheat with another woman. That is a temptation, and one that if you give into it can destroy your relationship. not having sex with your own wife because you're unwilling to use contraception is a temptation of your own creation, and that would harm nothing if you just stopped being ridiculous about it.

You're working - not only off very wrong ideas of my expectations of the Other - but also of my own expectations.

You really need to stop building up this fairy tale marriage thing in your head, or else it's just going to end up disappointing you.

Disappointed in what - the sex or in being in love or both together. Apparently Kenobi is a choirboy. Who knew?

Finding a person who is completely compatible with you as a person is hard enough, but finding one who also happens to agree with the multitude of thick red lines you're setting down is going to make it almost impossible to ever find a partner.

I disagree.

It's been brought up many times before, but 99% of Catholic women have used contraception at some point in their lives. So not only are you already limiting your potential dating pool to Catholics, but then you're also intending to write off 99% of them as well. You really think that's a smart plan?

One - that stat is flawed. It talks about those who have used contraception at any point of their life. Even women use contraception sometimes to regulate other hormonal issues would count.

Two - yes, limiting it to Catholics is hard. Limiting it to faithful Catholics is even harder. Sometimes the dude actually has pocket aces. I encourage you to turn into the next episode of, "As the Kenobi turns".

[kentonio]

How would I feel about it? I'd be fine with it. Not all women or men are type-A personalities. Some women (shocker here), actually prefer staying home and looking after kids. I'm not a type A personality. This should come as NO shock whatsoever.

Bully for you - first thing - not everyone thinks or sees the world in the same way that you do.

Plenty of women are happy with that life, and good for them, but you're talking about societal norms and how you believe 'most' women want nothing more than to marry and have kids and stay at home. That isn't true which you'd find out in seconds if you actually went and talked to some women outside your catholic church once in a while.

I would like a partner who doesn't think that cooking and children are 'oppressive tools of men's mind control'. And yes, I've heard that before...

Like I said, you want a submissive little slave to act as a cleaner, maid and incubator. It's rather sad.

So it is about forcing people to accept sodomy, unlike what you previously claimed. Good - now we got *that* bull**** argument out of the way.

Telling children that they are unwell and can change because they are born gay, is absolutely horrific and falls well within the realms of child abuse. No-one willing to torture a child like that deserves to be anywhere near children.

What lies? Birthrate drops -- the civilization gets overrun because it no longer has the manpower to keep itself running. Happened to Rome.

No it didn't, don't be ****ing ridiculous. If you want to continue with this babble, then provide some firm evidence that the Roman empire fell because of homosexuals bringing down the birthrate. Obviously you won't do that, because it's utterly ridiculous. How you have the cheek to call yourself a historian is beyond me..

As I said, disposable sex, disposable people. Thank you for being honest Kentonio.

I'm aware of it, and yes - there's been much put into about how condoms increase promiscuity.

Indeed. That's because you're having sex with the rubber, not the woman. Thank you Kentonio. Sex with your wife and sex with someone else is exactly the same when you wear a rubber.

The sad thing is that you're trying to play the part of someone who thinks about more than just meaningless sex, yet at the same time somehow believes that sex is nothing more than the sensation on your dick. You should try actually getting laid some time, then you might not sound so utterly ridiculous when you talk about it.

Plenty of articles on it. Women on hormonal contraception have sex and have a lower libido than those off of it.

Ridiculous.

Kentonio apparently is a woman. That's surprising.

Speaking of someone who actually has some experience of this, I can tell you that it makes very little difference. Please explain how you feel any kind of qualification to talk about the difference?

As is the idea that whomever you have sex with unites you both in body and spirit. Right Kentonio?

Obviously. It's completely moronic.

Then she can go get married to that other dude.

Except she won't, she'll probably just go and **** him because you're leaving her unfulfilled.

See - the problem with things like this - is that they are based on the conclusion that they will be happier living out the lie. So you don't want to have kids, and want sex - we talk about that. That's what adult couples are supposed to do. You asked me about compromise. You really think we couldn't work something out? There are legitimate means and this thread has talked about them.

Oh so now there are legitimate alternatives? How about you spell them out, rather than suddenly being so vague?

I know I'm not wrong on this.

You are completely wrong on this. If you want to claim otherwise, supply some evidence to support your wild claim.

They've already achieved it. Something like 60 percent of all college grads are women. Are they happy with the results? What I'm seeing and hearing is that no - no they aren't very happy with the results.

That's because you're an idiot. Go and try telling those college grads that they'd be happier on their hands and knees scrubbing the floors at home for a nice husband, and see how fast they tell you to go die in a fire.

So why are you drawing conclusions from these things and then stating, "he's obviously like it in real life", when someone who's slightly wiser might say, "hey, maybe he's just a really quiet guy, who doesn't speak out in public much, but likes Apolyton, because it gives him a chance to truly speak his mind".

So basically you're just as much of a naive, misogynist in real life, you just talk as much so people don't notice. You think this is good?

She was my first girlfriend, and it made an impression to me at the time. I'd never heard that argument before and it mystified me.

Because it's stupid. Shocker: sometimes people say stupid ****.

Unsurprised.

About marriage? You don't know jack. Sorry. I won't insult the folks who actually are married by comparing them to you.

That's because you're a jackass who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. In practical terms the only difference between a marriage and a committed relationship is the party at the start and the potential separation difficulties at the end. I don't know what crazy ass mental picture you have of marriage that makes you think it's anything different on an actual day to day basis.

Why wouldn't I be used to such compromise? I deal with that on the same basis. The bigger issue with Marriage, is, unlike your arrangements - you can't bail when things get tough. Call me when you give it a try. It'll be an eye opener. Easier to compromise when nothing important is on the line.

Every statement you make is a clear indicator that you're not used to compromising. As for 'bailing' on marriage, considering something like half of marriages end in divorce these days, you're talking out of your ass again. What you actually mean is that in your fairy tale perfect imaginary marriage, there's no bailing out.

Disappointed in what - the sex or in being in love or both together. Apparently Kenobi is a choirboy. Who knew?

You've spoken many times about this perfect marriage with a nice submissive woman who thinks the same as you and is willing to follow the same strict biblical rules etc etc. The reality of living with another human being as a couple is going to leave most of that looking really naive.

I disagree.

Yet there you are, single.

One - that stat is flawed. It talks about those who have used contraception at any point of their life. Even women use contraception sometimes to regulate other hormonal issues would count.

If you believe that is statistically significant, then you're delusional.

[Hauldren Collider]

Kentonio, since you're too damn slow to get to the point I'm going to make it for you.

Ben, you're a ***.

[MikeH]

Ben, you're a ***.

Not acceptable homophobic language IMO.

[MikeH]

BTW - I am married. In my view Kentonio is 100% right, Ben is 100% wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's ok Mike. It's from Excellent Banana Collider. Paragon of manliness.

[DinoDoc]

Not acceptable homophobic language IMO.

Don't people from the UK bum fags on a regular basis?

Also do you post here?

[Ben Kenobi]

Plenty of women are happy with that life, and good for them, but you're talking about societal norms and how you believe 'most' women want nothing more than to marry and have kids and stay at home. That isn't true which you'd find out in seconds if you actually went and talked to some women outside your catholic church once in a while.

I have spoken to many, working and not. Most I've spoken to hate working and really would prefer not working. Why do they work? For the same reason the men do - to provide for their families.

I don't think men and women are drastically different in their outlooks here. I'm really not seeing the consensus of women saying, "gosh I love working. I think it's awesome."

Like I said, you want a submissive little slave to act as a cleaner, maid and incubator. It's rather sad.

That right there. Referring to a mother as an incubator? Ok. That's a good way to get on my, 'let some other dude deal with them list'.

Telling children that they are unwell and can change because they are born gay, is absolutely horrific and falls well within the realms of child abuse. No-one willing to torture a child like that deserves to be anywhere near children.

As opposed to telling them the truth that 90+ percent of HIV infections occur in Gay men?

No it didn't, don't be ****ing ridiculous.

Yeah - it did. Why do you think they were recruiting so many barbarians? On both sides of the Limes? When you've got friendly barbarians fighting enemy barbarians, it kinda dulls the whole 'Roman Empire' aspect of it.

If you want to continue with this babble, then provide some firm evidence that the Roman empire fell because of homosexuals bringing down the birthrate.

I could just quote Marcus Aurelius on the importance of leading a moral life.

Obviously you won't do that, because it's utterly ridiculous. How you have the cheek to call yourself a historian is beyond me..

I'll take Marcus Aurelius' word over yours.

The sad thing is that you're trying to play the part of someone who thinks about more than just meaningless sex, yet at the same time somehow believes that sex is nothing more than the sensation on your dick. You should try actually getting laid some time, then you might not sound so utterly ridiculous when you talk about it.

I believe it to be neither. You're the one saying that it doesn't matter and yet you feel compelled to pay to put a rubber on and will not engage in your most nearest intimacy without one. I think that's rather sad.

Ridiculous.

http://www.doctoroz.com/blog/lauren-streicher-md/when-taking-pill-takes-away-libido

Yes, it's obviously a plot designed by men. Who knew that messing with the exact same hormones that promote sexual desire would have consequences...

Speaking of someone who actually has some experience of this, I can tell you that it makes very little difference. Please explain how you feel any kind of qualification to talk about the difference?

I've spoken with those who've had both - and they say that it's much better without. But go on - keep your rubber on.

Obviously. It's completely moronic.

So all the lists of women then have no real connection between yourself and them, correct? Despite having lots of sex?

Except she won't, she'll probably just go and **** him because you're leaving her unfulfilled.

Sounds like a fantastic decision on her part. Gosh I can't see that backfiring.

Oh so now there are legitimate alternatives? How about you spell them out, rather than suddenly being so vague?

Read up in the thread. Billings is one.

You are completely wrong on this. If you want to claim otherwise, supply some evidence to support your wild claim.

Again, I talk with many who don't share your opinion of things.

That's because you're an idiot. Go and try telling those college grads that they'd be happier on their hands and knees scrubbing the floors at home for a nice husband, and see how fast they tell you to go die in a fire.

You mean the same ones who live by themselves because they are too busy having a career and then wonder why they can't get a man? Yeah, been there, seen that. Worked with many of them at school.

So basically you're just as much of a naive, misogynist in real life, you just talk as much so people don't notice. You think this is good?

I'm also an amazing poker bluffer. Don't forget that!

Because it's stupid. Shocker: sometimes people say stupid ****.

Well the story ends and it wasn't that great for her.

That's because you're a jackass who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Right because your totally, 'not marriage' is *exactly the same* as marriage and it pisses you off that people don't agree with you on this. No, it's not.

In practical terms the only difference between a marriage and a committed relationship

Right, that's because marriage is wholly practical and has nothing to do with spiritual things. It's just a piece of paper, right?

I don't know what crazy ass mental picture you have of marriage

Some refer to it as Christian marriage.

Every statement you make is a clear indicator that you're not used to compromising.

Funny, I get that vibe from you - that there are plenty of non-negotiables and red lines that you carry around. You just don't thnk they are a big deal because they are your own.

As for 'bailing' on marriage, considering something like half of marriages end in divorce these days

Gosh the fornicator trumps out the argument, "hey but some marriages suck too!" extremely compelling argument Kentonio!

You've spoken many times about this perfect marriage with a nice submissive woman who thinks the same as you and is willing to follow the same strict biblical rules etc etc. The reality of living with another human being as a couple is going to leave most of that looking really naive.

That's a rather elaborate mental picture you've formed. I'm impressed.

If you believe that is statistically significant, then you're delusional.

I know why that survey was crafted, so that folks like you can say, "hey, everyone does it", the folks that don't are strange and weird, and, dare we say, repressed.

That's like the cardinal sin of today. Oh noes - you're repressed. It's the new scarlet letter!

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't people from the UK bum fags on a regular basis?

I'm told some are even smokers.

[self biased]

I'm told some are even smokers.

protip: if there's smoking going on, use more lube.

[kentonio]

I have spoken to many, working and not. Most I've spoken to hate working and really would prefer not working. Why do they work? For the same reason the men do - to provide for their families.

I don't think men and women are drastically different in their outlooks here. I'm really not seeing the consensus of women saying, "gosh I love working. I think it's awesome."

Don't be an idiot, there's a different between liking working, and liking having independence and choice in the direction of your life. Putting up with the crap of working for a living is the price of the latter.

That right there. Referring to a mother as an incubator? Ok. That's a good way to get on my, 'let some other dude deal with them list'.

Maybe you should stop thinking of women as baby creating machines then, and show them a little more respect as complete human beings and equals.

As opposed to telling them the truth that 90+ percent of HIV infections occur in Gay men?

Ok, now you've conceded that 'converting gays' is bull****, let's move onto your new nonsense. The actual figure for 2011 from the CDC was that male on male sexual contact accounted for 62% of cases, not '90%+'.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/basics/

Yeah - it did. Why do you think they were recruiting so many barbarians? On both sides of the Limes? When you've got friendly barbarians fighting enemy barbarians, it kinda dulls the whole 'Roman Empire' aspect of it.

I could just quote Marcus Aurelius on the importance of leading a moral life.

I'll take Marcus Aurelius' word over yours.

Ah yes because one man talking about how people should lead a moral life is evidence that a vast empire collapsed because of homosexuals. God you're a joke.

I believe it to be neither. You're the one saying that it doesn't matter and yet you feel compelled to pay to put a rubber on and will not engage in your most nearest intimacy without one. I think that's rather sad.

I think it's sad that you've never had the opportunity to find out how ridiculous what you're saying is. One day you're going to look back and think how much of a fool you've been wasting your youth waiting.

http://www.doctoroz.com/blog/lauren-...es-away-libido

Yes, it's obviously a plot designed by men. Who knew that messing with the exact same hormones that promote sexual desire would have consequences...

It's hilarious that you just cited an article that not only repeatedly said 'in some women', but also included this gem..

"If another method of contraception is not an option, the lesser of 2 evils is often to take a pill that diminishes sex drive rather than worry about an unplanned pregnancy."

Good work.

So all the lists of women then have no real connection between yourself and them, correct? Despite having lots of sex?

Personally I'm still good friends with nearly all my ex's. That's mostly because I value friendship over starry eyed bull**** about spirit.

Sounds like a fantastic decision on her part. Gosh I can't see that backfiring.

I wouldn't worry about it, you'd almost certainly never find out. Check out the statistics on how many married women have had affairs if you fancy depressing yourself some time.

You mean the same ones who live by themselves because they are too busy having a career and then wonder why they can't get a man? Yeah, been there, seen that. Worked with many of them at school.

I'm sure the amount of ****s they give about your opinion could be counted on the fingers of no hands.

Right because your totally, 'not marriage' is *exactly the same* as marriage and it pisses you off that people don't agree with you on this. No, it's not.

Please explain exactly what you think the actual difference is. Go on I'm genuinely interested. In terms of day to day life, not some religious bull****.

Right, that's because marriage is wholly practical and has nothing to do with spiritual things. It's just a piece of paper, right?

Yep.

Funny, I get that vibe from you - that there are plenty of non-negotiables and red lines that you carry around. You just don't thnk they are a big deal because they are your own.

I actually have very few. My last long term girlfriend was quite strongly religious. Who would have imagined such a thing, eh.

Gosh the fornicator trumps out the argument, "hey but some marriages suck too!" extremely compelling argument Kentonio!

You said you can't just bail on marriage, 50% of marriages involve people doing exactly that. I don't see how much more compelling it can be.

I know why that survey was crafted, so that folks like you can say, "hey, everyone does it", the folks that don't are strange and weird, and, dare we say, repressed.

It really burns you how much that study completely undermines your beliefs doesn't it.

[Ben Kenobi]

protip: if there's smoking going on, use more lube

I was waiting for that!

[Sava]

You are giving this product of anal creampie more attention than he deserves.

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't be an idiot, there's a different between liking working, and liking having independence and choice in the direction of your life. Putting up with the crap of working for a living is the price of the latter.

And many women that I know really want to stay and home and look after their kids.

Maybe you should stop thinking of women as baby creating machines then, and show them a little more respect as complete human beings and equals.

Right, because being a mother is exactly the same as being an incubator.

Son, there's a hot/crazy scale you may be familiar... There's crazy hot and there's just plain crazy.

Ok, now you've conceded that 'converting gays' is bull****

Stating that people can overcome their sexual desires is bull****? I guess we should shut down AA too.

The actual figure for 2011 from the CDC was that male on male sexual contact accounted for 62% of cases, not '90%+'.

Interesting. 5 percent of the population makes up 62 percent of the total. That's what, 15x the incidence ratio? I'm not exactly seeing your argument here.

Ah yes because one man talking about how people should lead a moral life is evidence that a vast empire collapsed because of homosexuals. God you're a joke.

Maybe you should actually look up Marcus Aurelius. I'm sorry for assuming that the name would have meaning to a plebian.

I think it's sad that you've never had the opportunity to find out how ridiculous what you're saying is. One day you're going to look back and think how much of a fool you've been wasting your youth waiting.

I know, right. It's such a moral dilemma. Christ or Kentonio, who to believe?

It's hilarious that you just cited an article that not only repeatedly said 'in some women', but also included this gem..

"If another method of contraception is not an option, the lesser of 2 evils is often to take a pill that diminishes sex drive rather than worry about an unplanned pregnancy."

Which concedes the point at hand that the pill does in fact reduce sexual desire in woman. Thanks, Kentonio.

Good work.

Thank you! I was proud of that!

Personally I'm still good friends with nearly all my ex's. That's mostly because I value friendship over starry eyed bull**** about spirit.

Did you tell them that you felt that the sex was awesome, you just didn't think you had a real connection? Somehow I doubt that...

I wouldn't worry about it, you'd almost certainly never find out. Check out the statistics on how many married women have had affairs if you fancy depressing yourself some time.

I wonder if it's the same percentage as those who get divorced?

I'm sure the amount of ****s they give about your opinion could be counted on the fingers of no hands.

Oddly enough the feeling is mutual.

Please explain exactly what you think the actual difference is. Go on I'm genuinely interested. In terms of day to day life, not some religious bull****.

It's a commitment. You're telling this woman that you want to be married to her and not just some general shacking up till whenever you can replace her with someone else who's hotter, whatever. You're also telling her family this and your family this. Statistically, you're likely to stay together longer, and less likely to break up and, bonus of bonus, will have more sex.

You want practicality, I don't think it gets more practical than that.

Yep.

What if I told you that people aren't just meatbags?

I actually have very few. My last long term girlfriend was quite strongly religious. Who would have imagined such a thing, eh.

Oddly enough not 'strongly Christian'.

You said you can't just bail on marriage, 50% of marriages involve people doing exactly that. I don't see how much more compelling it can be.

What percentage of all cohabiting relationships eventually fail?

It really burns you how much that study completely undermines your beliefs doesn't it.

Well let's see.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFundamentalist

If I'm that, then I wouldn't have the doubt.

Apparently you believe that I'm not a fundamentalist. So what am I?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HidingBehindReligion

I'm apparently not this either. Because then doubt wouldn't matter whatsoever.

I think you need to bone up on your tropes if you think I'm seriously bothered by that study. You don't know me very well.

[Ben Kenobi]

You are giving this product of anal creampie more attention than he deserves.

Apparently sava's cart is slow today.