Swiss to vote on ending Militia system

[Lonestar]

The Germans failed to anticipate a logistics situation based on them not wanting those circumstances to transpire in the first place.

Yeah man, shrugging your shoulders and going "whelp" instead of not planning for circumstances would be what I would call "****ty planning".

Seriously, when you're doing your Suppo thing how often does that work out? "Well skipper we have here a pretty detailed list of what's needed based upon previous consumption..." "What if x doesn't show up" "Oh that won't happen".

Obviously it's different at a unit level because there's only so much of a big picture you can draw, but the whole point of planning at the general staff level is to mitigate these problems.

[SlowwHand]

Planning is planning of Plan "B" and Plan "C" and ... Correct.

[kentonio]

What "experience" did the German Rank and File have that the Soviets didn't? Even with the purge there were still many thousands of field officers in the Red Army that had fought during WW1 and the Revolution, not to mention those that fought against various uprisings, border conflicts(such as with Poland), and the Winter War.

Are you honestly trying to argue that the Soviet army had as much combat experience as the Wehrmacht who had just come straight from the successful invasions of Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, France, Yugoslavia and Greece? Because they had their asses handed to them by the Japanese and the Finns and because they had some officer relics left from WW1?

"over all equipment superiority"?

Like what? The Mauser was a smoother bolt-action gun than the Nugget, but neither the K98 or Gew98 were particularly better as a service rifle. Hell, I've taken apart a M1903(which is so close to a Mauser the US was sued by the Mauser company) and I own a Nugget. If anything, a Nugget is easier to manufacture.

Tanks? The BT series performed admirably against their counterparts in the Spanish Civil War. Trucks? They had about as many as the Germans did. MGs? Now we're getting somewhere. Planes? Now we're getting somewhere, but the LW was not, perhaps, so good that they could ignore the size disparity. Half-tracks?

You got me. The Reds had no halftracks.

The Soviets were early in a program to modernize their military. For Barbarossa they were mostly still relying on T26's and those BT's, which might have been lovely during the Spanish Civil War, but which were obsolete by this point. They were also in bad condition.

By the summer of 1941, most of the Red Army's vast numbers of tanks were suffering from serious wear and tear. Poor quality roads, the vulnerabilities of track design in the early 1930s, and inadequate maintenance, recovery and repair services all took their toll. In some of the front line armoured units, up to half of the T-26, T-28 and BT tanks had major drive train components (engine, drive train or suspension) which were broken down or completely worn out, and these disabled tanks were parked and cannibalised for spare parts to keep the rest running. Tanks damaged during the 1939 Winter War with Finland were also cannibalised for parts.

On June 1, 1941 the Red Army had 10,268 T-26 light tanks of all models on their inventories, including armoured combat vehicles based on the T-26 chassis. T-26s composed a majority of the fighting vehicles in Soviet mechanised corps of the border military districts. For instance, the Western Special Military District had 1,136 T-26 tanks on June 22, 1941 (52% of all tanks in the district). The T-26 (mod. 1938/39, especially) could withstand most German tanks in 1941, but were vulnerable to the Panzer III and Panzer IV participating in Operation Barbarossa in June 1941, and all of the Red Army's tank models suffered severe losses due to complete air supremacy of the German Luftwaffe. The majority of the Red Army's T-26s were lost in the first months of the German-Soviet War, mainly to enemy artillery and air strikes. Many tanks broke down for technical reasons and lack of spare parts.

The issue with the Soviet army was not that they didn't have any good equipment, it was that they didn't have enough of the good stuff, and they didn't have the infrastructure and support network to keep everything in good condition pre-Barbarossa.

Actually, no they didn't.

They failed miserably at their objectives. They did better than they should have, by all rights, but they weren't able to bring the Russkis to surrender or come to a stopping point(say, seizing Moscow) before winter started...which is something the German leadership had been banking on pretty heavily.

Sorry, you clearly need a history lesson. The opening stages of Barbarossa were a massive success, with the Soviet forces collapsing under the initial assault. The 5.7 million Soviet POW's taken by the Germans should tell you how 'miserably' they failed. The Germans made some poor decisions and got bogged down at several key locations, then got hit by one of the worst winters on record which they were poorly equipped to face.

It gets really tiring hearing people try and claim that Barbarossa was some crazy half assed plan that could never work. it had every chance of working, which is why Stalin panicked when he heard the Germans were invading, and why it dragged on for years deep in Russian territory. Barbarossa came very close to working, and if it had then the Germans would have won WW2. Show the Soviets a little respect for goodness sake, they broke the German army by drowning it in Russian blood. 20-30 million deaths.

[Hauldren Collider]

Lonestar, the idea that the Red Army was as experienced as the Wehrmacht in 1941 is idiotic. However I think it's reasonably safe to say that the reason the Germans did so well was mainly ****-ups on the part of the Russians, rather than brilliance on the part of the Germans.

[Hauldren Collider]

Show the Soviets a little respect for goodness sake, they broke the German army by drowning it in Russian blood. 20-30 million deaths.

If I remember my history, this is the only strategy the Russians have ever utilized.

[Sava]

I didn't expect this argument when I opened this thread.

[MOBIUS]

No one expects the Second World War Inquisition...

[MOBIUS]

PS, Hitler.

[regexcellent]

The German logistics, if I remember right, were sufficient for before the fall rains, which generally make unpaved roads totally impassable in Eastern Europe.

They totally could have conquered the Soviet Union too, because I did it in HoI3.

[kentonio]

Lonestar, the idea that the Red Army was as experienced as the Wehrmacht in 1941 is idiotic. However I think it's reasonably safe to say that the reason the Germans did so well was mainly ****-ups on the part of the Russians, rather than brilliance on the part of the Germans.

If the Russians had been better prepared, the Germans probably wouldn't have launched the invasion. People only start wars they think they can win after all.

[Sava]

They totally could have conquered the Soviet Union too, because I did it in HoI3.

[Lorizael]

People only start wars they think they can win after all.

Tell that to the Civ 4 AI.

[Main_Brain]

Ah the Swiss, the only Country where Men actually voted to allow Women the Vote.

[Pax]

The fact is that it is a bad idea to be defenseless