Yeah sure, leaving aside for a moment it involved attacking the USSR, Barbarossa was a sound plan.
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Originally posted by Colon™ View PostYeah sure, leaving aside for a moment it involved attacking the USSR, Barbarossa was a sound plan.
It's also worth remembering that Barbarossa very nearly worked.
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You might just as well assume that Stalin hadn't decimated his entire officer corps and he hadn't interfered with war strategy to at least an equal degree as Hitler.
Yeah sure, it may have been a good time to attack the USSR. Like during his hibernation it also the best time to start a fight with a bear, and you may get the chance to throw a number of good punches, but that doesn't make it any less of a lousy idea to begin with.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.
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Originally posted by Colon™ View PostYou might just as well assume that Stalin hadn't decimated his entire officer corps and he hadn't interfered with war strategy to at least an equal degree as Hitler.
Originally posted by Colon™ View PostYeah sure, it may have been a good time to attack the USSR. Like during his hibernation it also the best time to start a fight with a bear, and you may get the chance to throw a number of good punches, but that doesn't make it any less of a lousy idea to begin with.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostAssume why?
...but for an industrial age country like Germany...DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.
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Originally posted by Colon™ View PostYeah sure, leaving aside for a moment it involved attacking the USSR, Barbarossa was a sound plan.Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostSorry that's completely inaccurate. Barbarossa for instance (although based on faulty intelligence of Soviet troop numbers) was originally a fairly sound plan. Hitlers interference in it, and insistence on certain aspects taking precedence over others led it to fail. His interference grew as the war progressed.
Seriously, the Germans did a ****ty job of planning the logistics for it from the get go, and they didn't start having frontline troops well supplied until, well, 1944 when the Frontline was touching the German rail network.
The Germans never had a chance to win in the East, but all opposition to it disappeared in the German General Staff because, again, they were drinking their own Kool-aid after France was defeated so easily.Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.
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Originally posted by Colon™ View PostYour thesis is that if Hitler hadn't done this wrong and that wrong... well, then you might just as well bring Stalin's blunders into the equation.
Originally posted by Colon™ View PostUSSR's industrial base was a good bit larger than Germany's on the eve of WW2.
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Originally posted by Lonestar View PostThe Germans never had a chance to win in the East, but all opposition to it disappeared in the German General Staff because, again, they were drinking their own Kool-aid after France was defeated so easily.John Brown did nothing wrong.
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Originally posted by Lonestar View Post"Leaving aside for the moment it was a fundamentally stupid decision with logistical problems beyond the capability of the Germans to plan for, it was a sound idea"
Originally posted by Lonestar View PostWhich interference led it to fail?
Originally posted by Lonestar View PostSeriously, the Germans did a ****ty job of planning the logistics for it from the get go, and they didn't start having frontline troops well supplied until, well, 1944 when the Frontline was touching the German rail network.
Originally posted by Lonestar View PostThe Germans never had a chance to win in the East, but all opposition to it disappeared in the German General Staff because, again, they were drinking their own Kool-aid after France was defeated so easily.
The Russians deserve absolutely huge respect for their achievements (which were at an unbelievably high cost in Russian blood), and this nonsense about how the Germans never had a chance to win is an insult to their memories quite frankly.
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Originally posted by Felch View PostIf the Japanese had gone for an Asiatic strategy instead of the Pacific one, Stalin wouldn't have been able to shift 18 divisions and thousands of tanks and planes from the Far East in time for Operation Typhoon. But obviously that would have required the Axis to be an actual alliance instead of whatever the hell it was.
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Kentonio, the trouble with your reasoning is that you take the extent Germany managed to advance as a given, whereas it was actually something remarkable and largely the result of grave mistakes on Soviet side. BOTH sides made mistakes. Creating a hypothetical situation where one side makes none at all and while other still does is a stupid way of analysing the war.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.
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Originally posted by Colon™ View PostKentonio, the trouble with your reasoning is that you take the extent Germany managed to advance as a given, whereas it was actually something remarkable and largely the result of grave mistakes on Soviet side. BOTH sides made mistakes. Creating a hypothetical situation where one side makes none at all and while other still does is a stupid way of analysing the war.
You're arguing something completely pointless, and which has nothing to do with the original discussion, which was you claiming that Barbarossa was a stupid plan that couldn't have worked (which is nonsense) and Lonestar claiming that the German high command was incompetent and just blamed Hitler for everything post-war (which is also nonsense).
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Germany went to war against a country that possessed superior manpower, industry, natural resources and required vast supply lines to conquer. The only reason they managed to get as far as they did because Soviet military command had been politicised and because they were completely unprepared for a German attack. German military tactics relied on concentrating forces at certain points, punching a hole through the lines, encircling the enemy forces and destroying them. This can be countered by defending in deep, but the Soviet forces were strung all along the burder in preparation of a Soviet attack, which played right into Germany's hands.
However, the USSR was a tad larger than France or Poland, which allowed the Soviet to regroup and adapt several times over. You speak of taking Moscow as some sort of end all but the centre of Soviet arms production was another 1000 miles to the east...
Again, the remarkable thing that happened wasn't that Germany failed to defeat the USSR, it was that they got so far against a superior foe.
If it makes you happy, I'll admit that when one side does everything right while the other does everything wrong, that side will win, but that's just a stupid way of analysing things.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.
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The Soviet army was large but in no way a match for the experience, overall equipment and tactical superiority of the Germans initially. The Germans absolutely overran the Soviets in the early months. I have no idea what picture you're trying to paint, because it doesn't seem to bear that much relation to reality.
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