"I don't feel special or entitled..."

[MRT144]

I'm always curious as to why STEM jobs shouldnt be solely instructed at for profit universities while high faluting artsy fartsy educations that benefit the public good's understanding of the world are taught at public universities.

[Kuciwalker]

You're referring to what, then? Student loans for private schools only?

Or just government-backed student loans in general?

The latter. I'm referring to the prevailing* system in which student loans rates are only loosely tied to any reasonable expectation of the chance they'll be repaid. The federal government backs most student loans and directly finances others.

In a world where loans were privately provided without a government backstop, lenders would exercise a lot more scrutiny over who they gave money to and at what rates. The fact that student loans aren't typically discharged in bankruptcy doesn't help if there isn't any income in the first place.

*at least until recently - there have been a lot of changes in the past couple years that I'm not really up-to-date on

[Kuciwalker]

Of course, the above will never happen because the entire point of federal intervention is to "expand access" and so anything that might conceivably reduce the number of people attending university is unconscionable.

[Fake Boris]

There are three fundamental problems:
3) The continued existence of academic departments that are ideologically committed to education as something other than job preparation.

What a major, significant problem!

[Kuciwalker]

[Fake Boris]

The problem is the cost of education to the student, not its content.

[MRT144]

Of course, the above will never happen because the entire point of federal intervention is to "expand access" and so anything that might conceivably reduce the number of people attending university is unconscionable.

And we're at the point where prospective employers use education as a barrier to entry because it simply makes their job easier in narrowing down prospective employees, not because its a reflection of the positions needs. As a discriminating factor, it behooves you to get a college degree, even if it comes with the liabilities of debt just so you dont get tossed in a discard pile. I dont know how to emphasize this point enough but even something that presents a marginal advantage doesnt make the situation good for the party involved. That an opportunity costs exists between two options doesnt speak at all to the inherent crapiness of the situation.

I mean, lets just pretend everyone goes to college for stem degrees and is fully able to pay back every red cent within 5 years.

Are there enough jobs out there in STEM to account for idealized visions of how higher education work? Should there be a limit on how many people can get these degrees?

One of the fundamental issues I have with suggesting "one foolproof plan to get a job and be debt free" is that to suggest that everyone do this wouldnt solve the question of misalocation of talent to job that would surely exist. We joke about PHD english professors slinging coffee but simply turning a switch and forcing more people into STEM is just going to lead to similar situations of investment not producing ROI for society and individual. And then what is the answer?

[MRT144]

The problem is the cost of education to the student, not its content.

Like my post down below says; even if you allocated everyone into a STEM track or "worthy degrees of value", you'd still be presented with the issue that theres just not enough jobs to sustain everyone being perfectly aligned with their talents, ability, education, networking, etc etc. And no amount of crowing about choice is going to obscure this. Then we're going to get into a discussion about, well obviously the most talented people should get the jobs but thats a simpletons take on the how and whys of getting hired.

[Kuciwalker]

MRT, the short version is: that's the point of letting markets set the interest rates. Maybe "STEM" isn't the future (I'm skeptical myself). Let private lenders figure out the answer and gamble their own capital on their guesses.

[Elok]

As someone who has screwed up his life pretty badly (though thankfully not fatally), I'm curious as to how anyone expects to sell this "to hell with you" message. Politician says, "You got a crappy degree in Puppetry, you shouldn't expect to be successful." Heckler asks, "Well, I did get a Puppetry degree, and now I have no job skills and lots of debt in a crappy economy. What do you expect me to do now that I'm stuck?" Politician answers, "Uh, starve to death to serve as a lesson to others?"

If you want to argue that indifference is warranted, that's on you, but you certainly can't expect it to sell. Especially since I'm far from the only cockup in our generation, and relatively few cockups got obviously terrible joke degrees like Puppetry.

[Hauldren Collider]

Two things, first of all, in my opinion there probably aren't enough people smart enough to actually do "STEM" to switch most people over to it. A lot of people wash out of math-oriented majors and end up in the humanities because they can't hack it. But you are correct, MRT, in that it would be possible to have an overabundance of math types. Which brings us to Kuci's point, that lenders should be allowed to try to figure out what's worthwhile and what isn't.

[MRT144]

Take your job for poors and shut up Elok.

Philisophical question:

If the only thing that matters is choice in determining outcomes for financial health in adulthood, why do parents try to give their children so many advantages in life? If you're working a high stress high paying job so you can afford a nice house in a good neighborhood with good schools, isnt that to provide your child with a better opportunity than their peers, to give them a competitive advantage? It seems these choice-is-outcome people shouldnt be doing anything to help their child as a matter of living the values you espouse.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I can just imagine how much you dislike the fast food strikers

Reg: "How dare you want 15 dollars an hour. You dont deserve it, you didnt earn it."

FFW: "What am I supposed to do, just roll over and die and take it?"

Reg: "Well you should go to college"

FFW: "I'm still poor after going to college due to the limited opportunities and the way that companies exploit unpaid internships. Not only that but I went into debt with private creditors because my fast food job wasnt enough to pay for a full ride. Sure I have a degree now but all the opportunities that pay enough to cover my student loans require a masters degree or higher. If I'm lucky I can get the department to take me on part time while I get my PHD but that only covers living expenses"

Reg: "Well you should have just made better choices instead of standing around a keg party boy"


I mean, there is no plausible scenario in this world where the way the world works is ****ed up in the way it pushes and pulls people into dubious situations of financial health, according to you. It all comes down to choices.

Get the **** out you simpleton.

I literally love you right now.

[MRT144]

Two things, first of all, in my opinion there probably aren't enough people smart enough to actually do "STEM" to switch most people over to it. A lot of people wash out of math-oriented majors and end up in the humanities because they can't hack it. But you are correct, MRT, in that it would be possible to have an overabundance of math types. Which brings us to Kuci's point, that lenders should be allowed to try to figure out what's worthwhile and what isn't.

Im fine with the government getting out of the lending business as long as theyre are needs based grants of significant value for poor people.

[Hauldren Collider]

Take your job for poors and shut up Elok.

Elok is actually doing the appropriate thing and getting an education in something very valuable--it's not a college degree, but who cares? Honestly, a lot of college degrees should really be 2-year degrees or some sort of trade school. Anyway, Elok is learning how to be a network administrator/sysadmin, even if it isn't his first choice of career. The problem that reg, kuci and I have is with people who go into a major KNOWING that it doesn't have much in the way of career prospects, and then getting upset when they get out and have no career prospects. They wasted their time and their money and they knew they were wasting it, or at least had no reasonable excuse to not know.

The appropriate measure here is not to reward this by saying "oh, well, have some tasty government subsidies to make up for your crippling lack of judgment." And the solution for people who are stuck in this hole is to remember that there's always a way out, it just might not be the one they wanted. As they say, not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up.