Helen Thomas passes.

[regexcellent]

The Arabs would hate us just as much with or without support for Israel. Anyway, most of the Arab countries (at least the ones run by relatively intelligent people, like Saudi Arabia or Egypt under Mubarak) use Israel as a boogeyman and nothing more, under the tacit understanding with Israel that neither will be shooting at each other and with a fair amount of under the table cooperation.

Iran (not an Arab country), under the Shah, was an Israeli ally. Israel even built the Tehran airport.

Also, sorry Elok, Israel doesn't commit war crimes, they get accused of it a lot, but they do their best considering the various war crimes their enemies commit constantly. The thing about war crimes is that they're gentlemen's agreements; if one side doesn't follow them, the other side is at a serious disadvantage if it does and really no longer has any reason to. The fact that Israel doesn't just napalm the whole goddamn Gaza Strip is showing an amazing amount of restraint.

[Elok]

What do you call the settlements, Reg? Every non-Israeli authority on international law agrees that the relevant part of the Geneva Conventions doesn't make exceptions for Jewish ethnicity, the other guys starting it, or anything else but "it was their land, you took it in war, you settled civilians on it permanently."

[Dinner]

One of the few who actually asked hard questions of people in power.

[Dinner]

Helen Thomas was not anti-semitic for ****s sake, she just had a view on Israel that ran contrary to most Americans and it's a sad thing that you can't tell the difference.

HC knows the difference he just chooses to ignore it because he's a ********.

[regexcellent]

What do you call the settlements, Reg? Every non-Israeli authority on international law agrees that the relevant part of the Geneva Conventions doesn't make exceptions for Jewish ethnicity, the other guys starting it, or anything else but "it was their land, you took it in war, you settled civilians on it permanently."

I'm pretty sure the Geneva Conventions are silent on the subject of settling land acquired through conquest.

Anyway, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the whole settler issue if it weren't for the fact that 90% of the noise or more is about Jerusalem, which isn't a settlement but rather the capital of the damn country.

Moreover, settlers aren't kicking people off of occupied land, at worst they're buying it at high prices.

None of this is relevant to the fact that Helen Thomas was a waste of air and space.

[Felch]

What do you call the settlements, Reg? Every non-Israeli authority on international law agrees that the relevant part of the Geneva Conventions doesn't make exceptions for Jewish ethnicity, the other guys starting it, or anything else but "it was their land, you took it in war, you settled civilians on it permanently."

If the most monstrous war crime that people can accuse you of is "building houses," then you're probably the good guys.

[notyoueither]

I'm pretty sure the Geneva Conventions are silent on the subject of settling land acquired through conquest.

Actually, I think there is a prohibition on settling occupied lands.

[C0ckney]

Oh, and our attachment to Israel is most certainly excessive. Consider Britain: they've been our allies for ages, since long before Israel even existed. We trade with them, work closely with them, they even send their young men off to die on our stupid wars. If we want to criticize them or even make fun of them, we're allowed. Happens all the time, and nobody takes it personally.

Israel, on the other hand: well, AFAICT our relationship mostly consists of our giving them money and taking their side on disputes. Every once in a while we offer them more money if they'll stop committing war crimes for six months or so, to which their response is usually "hmmm...nah." In short, we get basically nothing out of the relationship, except for hatred from Arabs and Muslims, which we're pretty well stocked up on ATM. And yet, our politicians can't speak a word against them. Criticism of that state is essentially taboo. The closest we can come to it is to act vaguely sympathetic towards the Palestinians. That's messed up.

pretty much this.

it's actually really curious just how pro-israel america is, and most americans are. i've always wondered why this is, because as you rightly say, it's very hard to see what america gets out of the relationship, except for bad PR in the arab world and occasional attacks on its ships. yet the love for israel is real. it's rather like the love a battered wife has for her abusive husband. scary, completely nonsensical, but real nonetheless.

the contrast with other western countries is quite striking. the US is much more pro-israel, by some distance than any other country. if you read a comment thread from a british newspaper about israel, the fiercest defenders of israel's latest outrage, will usually be of the jewish persuasion. i can understand this, ethnic or religious loyalty is a powerful thing. however, as we see here in this thread, the issue drives american people who have absolutely no connection: national, cultural, racial or religious with israel, to go to the most extraordinary lengths to deny israel's crimes or to paint any critic of israel as an anti-semitic.

i've often wondered why this is. it must be something to do with the media, the way the whole story is presented.

[regexcellent]

i've often wondered why this is. it must be something to do with the media, the way the whole story is presented.

Nothing to do with the media; if you remember 2006, the media was up in arms about the invasion of Lebanon but Americans were broadly for it and saw it as justified (as it was; they were bombarding northern Israel).

The reason is broadly speaking because we're not so ****ing stupid and short-sighted as Europeans, that we understand the Israelis are on the right side, we remember what happened last time they didn't have a state, and we identify with their struggle for religious freedom quite strongly.

And we realize that they are surrounded by millions of people who want to exterminate them, and I don't know about you, but I personally think those people can **** right off.

[Al B. Sure!]

Most of my friends are liberals from Philly and pro-Israeli sentiment couldn't get much lower. It's not universal in America.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, but the Israel thing does kind of institutionalize it.

So - arabs are justified in Hating america because their Jew-hate not only extends to every Jew everywhere but also to everyone who claims friendship with Jews?

[C0ckney]

The reason is broadly speaking because we're not so ****ing stupid and short-sighted as Europeans

that's rather my point. it's not just europeans, but the rest of the world. you could look at western hemisphere countries or other new world countries and you would find that america's and american's fanatical support for israel is unique. this suggests to me that this is a direct result of the way the issue is framed. what is more puzzling is why this is.

[C0ckney]

Most of my friends are liberals from Philly and pro-Israeli sentiment couldn't get much lower. It's not universal in America.

well of course not everyone will have the same opinion, but the level of support for israel, both from the political class and the general population is very high.

[regexcellent]

Clearly it must be zionist control of the media

I would vote for we just have better cultural values than other people.

[notyoueither]

that's rather my point. it's not just europeans, but the rest of the world. you could look at western hemisphere countries or other new world countries and you would find that america's and american's fanatical support for israel is unique.

No. it's not. Support for Israel in Canada is widespread and the current Canadian government in far more hardline in its support for them than the current US administration.

I think it is a combination of liking an underdog (origins of Israel) historical grievance (the Jewish people) and Israel being a functioning democracy in a desert... Other than that I don't know.