Today's SCOTUS ruling - Affirmative Action

[Dinner]

I love how you mention "incarceration rates" instead of "crime rates."

You are aware that when a white commits the exact same crime as a black the black almost always gets a much harsher sentence, right? So, yeah, disproportional things like that do have an impact as does unequal access to high quality legal representation because as everyone knows the free public defender does not have the time or resources to do much of anything. As for different crime rates it is very easy to say they should get a job when you're not the one who automatically gets turned away simply because your black or when you live in a community with a thriving business sector vs someone who lives in the ghetto where there simply aren't that many jobs.

[Ben Kenobi]

They didn't appoint a South American pope to continue the policy that's far and away the most detrimental to that part of the world.

Anyone else want to join in with the bet with snoopy against fmr Card. Berglogio?

[Elok]

I don't know. We've seen the creation of a black middle class and even a black upper class of such an extent it would have been undreamable in the 1960's so I'd say improved access to education has had very real positive effects. That doesn't mean everything is roses and, yes, single parent households are a problem as they generally result in higher poverty rates. Now, part of that is cultural in the black community but I ask you how much of that part of black culture in America is the result of centuries of families being unwillingly broken up because one parent was sold "down river" thus creating a cycle of broken households? That's just part of a very complex equation and possibly not even the dominant part but it is undeniably a part and that part should be addressed and not ignored as it historically has been.

The problem, as I see it, is that even as the black upper and middle classes came into being, the black lower class has been going straight to hell. I don't know how on earth one would go about fixing that, but affirmative action isn't going to do much. Kids from extreme lower-class backgrounds (of any race) tend to be so staggeringly unmotivated that, in my experience, there's not much point sending them to school at all. In my district, they get foisted off on a school assistant who takes them to another room where they can "work in small groups." Which is code for "do basically nothing, no matter how they're prompted, but in 'small groups' they aren't distracting the other students." I have no idea WTF they do in districts where they're the majority.

[Hauldren Collider]

I think it's undeniable that black culture is responsible for virtually all of the problems that face black people that aren't simply attributable to poverty. This is not to say that racism doesn't exist or isn't prevalent--merely that it isn't a decisive factor anymore. Consider Asian immigrants--in my opinion, they face racism at least as severe as black people, yet their achievement is stellar. And if we want to control for racism, consider African immigrants. Same skin color, yet they are very overrepresented in academic and economic achievement, despite starting poorer and often not speaking English. Which means that generational poverty has to do with something other than race.

[Guynemer]

I think it's undeniable that black culture is responsible for virtually all of the problems that face black people that aren't simply attributable to poverty.

Ummm... I deny that. I deny that most vigorously.

[Elok]

Consider Asian immigrants--in my opinion, they face racism at least as severe as black people, yet their achievement is stellar.

Depends on the type of Asian, but I think you pretty much have to be a dark Arab named Mohammed al-Abdul bin Wazeed or something to have as bad a handicap as black folk get. Hell, if your name is Wei or Chen most people will assume you're more studious and well-behaved.

[Hauldren Collider]

Ummm... I deny that. I deny that most vigorously.

Then can you explain why African immigrants do so well in academia and such? Also, note the qualification, "attributable to poverty".

I'm basing this off my experience, by the way. Virtually all of the black kids at CMU are african immigrants. An RA in my building two years ago was a Nigerian, and the parents of my roommate last year were from the Caribbean (Tobago I think?) Same was true at my high school, iirc. There's no way to explain this beyond culture or socioeconomics.

[Hauldren Collider]

By the way, I really really don't want the takeaway from that to be "HC doesn't believe there is racism or believe it is a problem". That's not at all the case.

[DinoDoc]

Hell, if your name is Wei or Chen most people will assume you're more studious and well-behaved.

And a bad driver.

[Hauldren Collider]

And a bad driver.

And don't speak English. And (possibly, depending on country of origin) hate America. And a variety of other nasty prejudices.

[Hauldren Collider]

Depends on the type of Asian, but I think you pretty much have to be a dark Arab named Mohammed al-Abdul bin Wazeed or something to have as bad a handicap as black folk get. Hell, if your name is Wei or Chen most people will assume you're more studious and well-behaved.

Hm, couldn't this be because their culture does prioritize studiousness and good behavior?

[Wiglaf]

You are aware that when a white commits the exact same crime as a black the black almost always gets a much harsher sentence, right?

Blacks tend to be repeat offenders. Repeat offenders get higher sentences

[Hauldren Collider]

Also, you tend to pretty much either only ever commit zero/one crime, or commit loads of crimes, meaning penalties stack up rather quickly.

[Wiglaf]

Sentencing factors in so much other non-racist stuff too, like brutality, remorse, even behavior in jail..

[Guynemer]

By the way, I really really don't want the takeaway from that to be "HC doesn't believe there is racism or believe it is a problem". That's not at all the case.

Then watch how you phrase things.