Life begins at conception?

[Kidlicious]

MtG was arguing that 'we should get the state out of woman's bodies'. Presumably this involves getting the state OUT of abortion funding, if MtG is being honest about his motivations.

Do you think the state shouldn't fund childbirth for poor mothers? If you think they should then your argument isn't working. But that hasn't stopped you in the past.

[N35t0r]

Does vaccination involve killing people? No? Then I guess your analogy fails.

So you'd be OK with contraception being handed out?

[kentonio]

Sadly have not had the chance to do that yet.

You're talking about the woman who you allegedly quoted? The one who has had four kids? Were they born out of wedlock or is she married and you're intending/wishing to have relations with her outside the holy bounds of matrimony? If they were born out of wedlock, shouldn't you be stoning her to death rather than having wet dreams about her?

****, not only are you a terrible Christian, but you're also a terrible member of the medieval extremist branch of the Catholic church you claim to support.

[kentonio]

So you're saying that the feminism of today *isn't* represented by the Suffragettes of yesterday?

That's an interesting conclusion. I guess that means that it's not feminism at all. I thought suffragettes were feminist icons?

It's like claiming that slavery in 1865 had no connection with Jim Crow - and that the Civil Rights pioneers didn't look back to their predecessors like Frederick Douglass, etc.

You're the worst 'historian' ever. No, the suffragettes are not in the slightest representative of modern feminism, given that they lived in an age where true equality of the sexes was so far outside the standards of society that they would have found it nearly impossible to even contemplate such a thing.

Funny that you bring up slavery however, as equally even the most ferverent abolishionists would have seemed rather racist by the standards of today.

You can admire the early figureheads of a movement and admire how progressive they were for their times, without needing to hold up their outdated views as someone still particularly relevent today. Lincoln was considered a radical progressive for his time, today he'd be seen as a racist dinosaur. That doesn't mean we can't look back and revere him for what he achieved.

[kentonio]

Yes, because the evil Patriarchy is only trying to control women. They would never prevent men from having abortions.

The only reason abortion is such a hot button topic in the US is because it only affects half the population. If men got pregnant then they'd understand the reasons for it a lot better, and it would have already slipped off the political radar.

It's an awful lot easier to shout about how evil something is, when you know it isn't going to be a choice you have to face yourself.

[dannubis]

You're the worst 'historian' ever.

But but but... he can speake teh French...

[Dr Strangelove]

I wanna know why newborns are not considered to be nine months old when they're born.

In some cultures they are.

[Dr Strangelove]

Actually I thought that life began 4 billion years ago?

[dannubis]

BLASPHEMY !

[molly bloom]

So you're saying that the feminism of today *isn't* represented by the Suffragettes of yesterday?

One rather hopes not:

"Think of Patrick and Sambo and Hans and Ung Tung who do not know the difference between a Monarchy and a Republic, who never read the Declaration of Independence... making laws for Lydia Maria Child, Lucretia Mott, or Fanny Kemble."

Elizabeth Cady Stanton

[molly bloom]

It is a human being.

Astonishing. At which point precisely does this collection of cells become a 'human being' ?

The natural right, you mean like the natural right to life?

I mean what I put.

Feminism isn't about natural rights.

That's a nice opinion, but not what I wrote either.

It's about promoting women above everyone else.

There's me thinking it was about distinguishing women from doormats.

It's about making men more obligated to them.

Someone with divorce issues ? I'm sensing bitterness tinged with misogyny here...

Making men less free, and killing babies.

Killing babies ? Must be an American thing- like that woman who drowned her children and said a black man did it. Folks like you believed her, of course- she was white, after all.

[molly bloom]

The only reason that it's even possible for abortion to be legal is because it's something that men can't do.

Right... if men could give birth, hell, if men could menstruate, there'd be drive-in, while you wait abortion clinics and temples to the monthly cycle.

It's only legal, of course, for women.

And how long did it take you to discover only women could become pregnant ?

Did you experience many difficulties trying on your own ?

[molly bloom]

Then why must we intervene?

Rather obviously, not every foetus is spontaneously aborted or miscarried. Gee, Ben, you didn't know ? In any case there is no 'must'- the point is to ensure women have control over their own bodies, not that women are forced to abort. Don't try Jesuitical casuistry- you don't have the intelligence for it.

I might as well quote Tolkein here.

Wow- his groundbreaking work on medical ethics- 'The Silmarillion' perhaps ? Yawn.

Can you decide whom shall live and whom shall die?

As I have no intention of reproducing, deciding whether or not a foetus will be aborted or not is unlikely to be a decision I have to make. I may well have to decide whether I or my partner have our lives terminated- neither he nor I wish to be a drain on the resources of our loved ones or each other, nor do we wish our lives to be unnecessarily prolonged to satisfy someone else's notions of the supposed 'sanctity of life'. I prefer quality over quantity, thanks.

Who is useless and who is not?

Please, don't tempt me.

So it's ok for the mother to kill her child when she believes the child would impose an emotional burden on her?

Wow, let's all do the partial quote dance !

So what you are saying is that every abortion ever is justified because of the inconvenience of the child.

Yeah, that's exactly what I've written isn't it ? Preferably starting with the ones who are congenitally deaf and the others subject to progressive deafness.

Would this reasoning apply to born children?

Absolutely- kill all the little b*stards, especially the ones who won't behave in public.

Ergo - I conclude that you are assuming the unborn child is not a person

Then you conclude incorrectly- I believe that a foetus is no more a person or a child than any other random agglomeration of human cell tissue. Unlike you, I don't assume a merely potential unknowable future development as a given. Why not call the foetus the unborn Aileen Wuornos or Ulrike Meinhof, or the unborn suicide bomber ?

because my mother had the choice to have an abortion and chose to keep me.

The essential point being she had the choice to, or not to.

Anytime a self-professed 'feminist' argues for abortion rights, yes, yes this is the case.

So any random feminist represents all feminist philosophy. I doubt if Betty Friedan, Germaine Greer or Shulamith Firestone ever endowed themselves with the ability to speak for all feminists.... but do see if you can quote them doing so.

[Kidlicious]

You're talking about the woman who you allegedly quoted? The one who has had four kids? Were they born out of wedlock or is she married and you're intending/wishing to have relations with her outside the holy bounds of matrimony? If they were born out of wedlock, shouldn't you be stoning her to death rather than having wet dreams about her?

****, not only are you a terrible Christian, but you're also a terrible member of the medieval extremist branch of the Catholic church you claim to support.

She shouldn't be stoned but she should be prevented from raising little criminals like that.

[Kidlicious]

The only reason abortion is such a hot button topic in the US is because it only affects half the population. If men got pregnant then they'd understand the reasons for it a lot better, and it would have already slipped off the political radar.

It's an awful lot easier to shout about how evil something is, when you know it isn't going to be a choice you have to face yourself.

Oh what a bunch of feminist psychobabel. Stupid men blah blah blah.