The Kenyan Socialist anti-Christ does it again...

[Ben Kenobi]

Anything that prevents you from eating at McDonald's has to be considered a bonus.

Well, it's Kidicious. They don't have great places like Whataburger!

[The Mad Monk]

What's funny is how you can bet your stock portfolio that certain tools and trolls here would be jumping and dancing and proclaiming the Second Coming if Romney had won and the same DJIA results were achieved in a Romney administration.

Obama and the Dems have stated loudly and on numerous occasions that the TP and GOP are blocking everything they try to accomplish.

...

I say we run with it.

[MichaeltheGreat]

[MRT144]

And before, that 5 bucks would buy you a big mac meal. Now 6 bucks isn't enough. Have you made money?

Inflation hasn't been that bad

[Kidlicious]

And before, that 5 bucks would buy you a big mac meal. Now 6 bucks isn't enough. Have you made money?

Yes, I have made money. If you haven't it's your own fault. Stop blaming Obama and lying.

[Ben Kenobi]

Inflation hasn't been that bad

It's been higher than the 'returns'. This is bad.

To put it in perspective, you invested 10, and you're getting 10, but your 10 then buys 11 now. So you lost money.

Or in another perspective, since 2000, you invested 10 and you're getting 10, but your 10 then would buy close to 15 now. That's a lot of money.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, I have made money.

No, you have not. You have lost money. Before your money was worth a big mac meal. Now it's not. You would have earned a greater return spending the money when you got it then you would have from 'investing' it.

If you haven't it's your own fault. Stop blaming Obama and lying.

Hrm? I'm doing just fine. I'm much better off now than I was in 2007. I had a fair amount of debt back then and no assets. 2008 is a different matter. 2008 was a great year for me up until October.

I would do much better under Romney than Obama though. Obama sucks for the economy, and especially for where I teach. But, we're trucking along. We can't wait till he's gone so we can really get going. That whole '29 hours' really doesn't help me much, but if they farm me out I can work more hours.

[DaShi]

...as long as the congress keeps **** blocking him, yeah, he's doing great for the economy!

Now it's Congress's fault.

[MichaeltheGreat]

It's been higher than the 'returns'. This is bad.

To put it in perspective, you invested 10, and you're getting 10, but your 10 would buy 11 now. So you lost money.

Or in another perspective, since 2000, you invested 10 and you're getting 10, but your 10 would buy close to 15 now. That's a lot of money.

You should figure out that you appear less stupid when you shut your piehole.

You're conveniently ignoring (or simply ignorant of) the effect of divident payouts, which apply to all the DJIA constituents. Combine dividends and change in price, and you're well above rate of inflation - about double, actually. How about "since 2000, you invested 11.50 and you're getting 14.2, plus dividend of almost 6, for a total of 20.2, but your original 11.5 would buy close to 15 now.

Not surprising you have to leave inconvenient facts out and jack the numbers around to make your so-called point.

[Ben Kenobi]

You should figure out that you appear less stupid when you shut your piehole.

Which is why the inflation-adjusted DOW is the important number?

You're conveniently ignoring (or simply ignorant of) the effect of divident payouts, which apply to all the DJIA constituents.

I presume you mean dividends? That's great if you're an investor in the actual stocks, (and assuming you weren't a GM investor, in which case you lost everything) but not if you're in index funds.

And you're ignoring the opposite that the DOW doesn't keep the same members at all times. Dropping underperforming stocks and bringing in stronger ones will ensure a portfolio that should increase over time all else being equal. If you're invested in the stocks rather than the index, you will feel it when the stocks drop out of the index.

Having zero percent growth over 13 years is terrible. Having minus returns after inflation is even worse.

Not surprising you have to leave inconvenient facts out and jack the numbers around to make your so-called point.

Weren't you the one saying that inflation was irrelevant? The facts are important. Zero return over 13 years says it all.

I'd also like to see some evidence for your numbers rather than MtG, 'pulling it out of your ass'.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Which is why the inflation-adjusted DOW is the important number?

The DJIA is an indicator of trends. Adjusting for inflation is meaningless, since you're not using it to model a 50 year buy and hold strategy. If you had appropriate technical and fundamental analysis guiding exit and reentry decisions, even if you missed peaks and troughs by 15% each time, you'd have more than triple the results of simply adopting long term buy and hold.

I presume you mean dividends? That's great if you're an investor in the actual stocks, but not if you're in index funds.

Typo. If you invest in index funds as a primary asset strategy rather than a hedge or risk mitigation strategy, you need to make sure you have a good ledge to jump off of. That's only a step or two less stupid than retail day trading.

And you're ignoring the opposite that the DOW doesn't keep the same members at all times. Dropping underperforming stocks and bringing in stronger ones will ensure a portfolio that should increase over time all else being equal. If you're invested in the stocks rather than the index, you will feel it when the stocks drop out of the index.

Stocks are dropped and added not on the basis of their short term performance but as a function of how well they represent the overall economy and activity in economic sectors, and to make room for new sectors. You're limited to 30, so the only way you get a Microsoft or Cisco in there is by dropping someone else. If a particular stock is a candidate for being dropped from the DJIA, you should probably be doing your own evaluation as to whether it rates holding or selling.

Weren't you the one saying that inflation was irrelevant?

I said it was irrelevant to the asset transaction I'm working on, which (after due diligence knocked the numbers down somewhat) has an annual unleveraged cash on cash return in excess of 14% per year, and an IRR in the 18+ percent range. 1.x or 2.x or even 3.x percent annual inflation is irrelevant to that.

The facts are important. Zero return over 13 years says it all.

So is context. Zero return for what? Money is being made and lost and moved around all the time. We're talking capital markets, not your years in the edumacashunal system.

[Dinner]

Inflation hasn't been that bad

Core inflation is less than 1% so as usual Ben is being a ****.

[DaShi]

Inflation is way too low, actually.

[Dinner]

Which gets us back to our demand side problem. Supply side economics won't work because we already have way to much supply and what is lacking is demand. American consumers have maxed out their credit cards and then lost their jobs so they're broke and can't afford to buy more while those who still have jobs worry about losing them and so avoid non-essential purchases. Even companies were leveraged to the hilt due to decades of expensive mergers & acquisitions so we're going to have to wait while people and companies both go through the long slow process of deleveraging. It would help if we liberalized bankruptcy laws (which Republicans tightened back in 2005 when they knew they were on their way to minority status) that way people could get a clean slate and get out from under upside down homes and debts they have no hope of ever repaying. Clearing the bad debts would be the first real solid step to getting the national economy back in shape for growth.

[MichaeltheGreat]

BK law reforms don't really have a significant impact, since people with underwater mortgages and cars generally want to file 13 instead of 7 to be able to strip mortgages and cramdown underwater car loans. It's a little more paperwork, and a few more calculations if you're a bit above statewide median income. Like most congressional "reform," BAPCPA was really more of an employment act for people in the industry - BK lawyers and paralegals. In probably 98% of cases, people get directed to the appropriate chapters for their situation.