Is the Republican party done?

[Kidlicious]

I wonder what he thinks about Thomas Paine.

[Ben Kenobi]

Umm, there's a difference between socialists and classical liberals.

[Elok]

There's a special kind of brilliance attached to you being such a big fan of the founders who were basically the liberals of their day.

There are many things wrong with what Drinksnacks says, but this isn't really one of them. The Founders would be beyond conservative by today's standards (except in religious beliefs, where they'd fit right in with today's college students), and actually formed their political beliefs before Burke came out against the Terror with his proto-conservatism.

[Felch]

Do you really think the poor should get nothing from the oil revenues or their own country?

If the people of Venezuela got checks like the people of Alaska do, that would be cool. When the politically connected people of Venezuela treat oil revenues as a slush fund as crime goes through the roof and the economy tumbles in a free fall, that's bad.

[kentonio]

There are many things wrong with what Drinksnacks says, but this isn't really one of them. The Founders would be beyond conservative by today's standards (except in religious beliefs, where they'd fit right in with today's college students), and actually formed their political beliefs before Burke came out against the Terror with his proto-conservatism.

By todays standards of course purely because of how much human society has evolved since, but by the standards of their day they were the standard bearers of radical liberal thought. Equality of all men? Government seperated from the church? A country based on the ideas of liberty and opportunity for all? ****, the philosophical impact of that is radical today for goodness sake, especially for those who claim to care the most about Americas founding principles.

[Kidlicious]

If the people of Venezuela got checks like the people of Alaska do, that would be cool. When the politically connected people of Venezuela treat oil revenues as a slush fund as crime goes through the roof and the economy tumbles in a free fall, that's bad.

He's not a dictator. In the last election he got 63% of the vote. Maybe the capitalists should have sent some checks out.

[Kidlicious]

Most american colonists were not as conservative as the founding fathers though. Indeed, the founding fathers didn't actually believe in equality. They intended to rule.

[regexcellent]

He's not a dictator. In the last election he got 63% of the vote. Maybe the capitalists should have sent some checks out.

Venezuela's elections are totally rigged.

Most american colonists were not as conservative as the founding fathers though. Indeed, the founding fathers didn't actually believe in equality. They intended to rule.

Yes they did believe in equality! It was a basic premise! That you can't be born noble. That men are created equal, i.e. there is no such thing as aristocracy or divine right of kings. That was a huge concept back then. Conservatism is about equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.

[Elok]

DP

[Elok]

By todays standards of course purely because of how much human society has evolved since, but by the standards of their day they were the standard bearers of radical liberal thought. Equality of all men? Government seperated from the church? A country based on the ideas of liberty and opportunity for all? ****, the philosophical impact of that is radical today for goodness sake, especially for those who claim to care the most about Americas founding principles.

Well, they basically paid lip service to the ideas of equality, liberty and opportunity--especially that slave-whipping SOB Jefferson. The church and state thing was mostly supported by the ones who happened to be deists. Our image of the FFs, even today, is continually airbrushed so we can use them as idols even as we ignore what they actually wanted.

[regexcellent]

Well, they basically paid lip service to the ideas of equality, liberty and opportunity--especially that slave-whipping SOB Jefferson.

**** you, Jefferson was the man.

[Kidlicious]

Venezuela's elections are totally rigged.

Why do you think that?

Yes they did believe in equality! It was a basic premise! That you can't be born noble. That men are created equal, i.e. there is no such thing as aristocracy or divine right of kings. That was a huge concept back then. Conservatism is about equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.

No it's not. It's about inequality of outcomes. There's a difference in actually believing in equality and telling people you do so that they will join your army.

[regexcellent]

What the hell are you talking about? The whole concept behind "all men are created equal" is that you start at the same place--without noble birth--and work your way to the top. There is inequality but it is fair, because everyone is on a level playing field, under the code of laws.

[Kidlicious]

What the hell are you talking about? The whole concept behind "all men are created equal" is that you start at the same place--without noble birth--and work your way to the top. There is inequality but it is fair, because everyone is on a level playing field.

No. No. Read Common Sense by Thomas Paine. That's where the idea came from. It says that the way God intends is for all men to be equal, not to just start out that way. The rise of those with power is because of man's sinful desire to rule over others, and when men do rule over others the oppressed have the right to revolt.

[regexcellent]

I think you're mixing up the Founders with Marx here.