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  • #61
    One group gained enough to be able to help their kids have an education/chance for success in life, were able to have some consumption, and were able to have access to healthcare.

    The other group just had more money/power than they had previously.

    Raising someone from poor to middle class does a whole lot more good to that person's family/self than raising someone from extremely wealthy to ridiculously wealthy.

    The only 'good' that you could argue that the latter does is via 'trickle down' which doesn't have empirical evidence that it actually happens. Unlike the empirical evidence of the difference between poverty and the middle class.

    JM
    (You could argue that it is 'good' because it is fair, but neither is fair. You could argue that it is 'good' because of helping the economy, this is basically the 'trickle down' argument which lacks empirical evidence.)
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Zevico View Post
      Minimum wage laws drive unemployment up. Their sole purpose is to protect the employees currently in the workforce from new, young employees competing for those or similar positions.
      the effects on unemployment are the subject of strenuous academic debate. if we use the UK as an example, we have seen that the minimum wage there has raised the wages of the lowest paid, at a greater rate than inflation, with a negligible effect on employment.

      Fact is that most minimum wage jobs are for youths. For youths this means instilling values like hard work and reliability. That's more valuable than the actual paycheck.


      but more seriously, i think you'll find that most people value the pay cheque more than the 'values' they get from flipping burgers or whatever.

      That's why so many organisations offer internships--salary free-and so many youths sign on. They understand the value of work and its attractiveness to future real employers. Of course these are only available to the children of the rich--who can afford the prerequisites and education that comes with the "honour" of the payment-free internship. And invariably, so many of these organisations are the not for profit "left wing" groups. They might even include union think tanks calling for higher minimum wages.

      Work experience for me, but not for thee.
      this is just a strange comment. in many industries (as diverse as publishing, fashion and banking) unpaid internships are a standard feature, i don't see how these industries are 'left wing'. a left wing position would be that unpaid internships are exploitative and serve to restrict entry into jobs to the children of the well off.
      Last edited by C0ckney; September 4, 2012, 11:57. Reason: clarification
      "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

      "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
        The unions preventing the standards from being eroded is precisely the problem. We have tons of overpaid union employees that would rather drive their companies into bankruptcy than accept a pay cut. Even worse, they'd rather put taxpayers on the hook for it. C.f. the GM bailouts.
        No, there are standards that should be maintained. Child labor laws, minimum health standards, etc.
        Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
        "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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        • #64
          Unions aren't the people protecting those, though.
          If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
          ){ :|:& };:

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          • #65
            Originally posted by MrFun View Post
            Since when do you have a problem with prejudice and bigotry? You're a conservative, remember?
            I now see the commonality, a tendency to stereotype and apply bigotted reasoning skills.
            "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

            “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post


              I'm so glad the government is around to protect me from obviously bad choices. I have news for you: No one can force you to work harder than you want to. It might be hard for a lazy person to find a job, however.
              What jobs have you worked in the past?
              You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Krill View Post
                What jobs have you worked in the past?
                I don't think this is relevant, but I'll bite. I've worked four jobs, all over the summer. One minimum wage job as a cashier/bag boy at a grocery store, two software internships, and last summer I taught math and basic programming to little kids (3rd and 4th graders and sometimes 7th/8th graders).
                If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                ){ :|:& };:

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                  Unions aren't the people protecting those, though.
                  Perhaps, but they did advocate for them originally. It could be argued that were unions dismantled entirely, such protections would eventually be dismantled as well. This may or may not be true, and I haven't the foggiest idea what the data say about this claim.
                  Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                  "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                  • #69
                    Isn't the more appropriate question is what unions have done for the public lately rather than allowing them to bask in the glow of past laurels? Declining membership suggests the worker of today sees little utility in them.
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • #70
                      It seems to me that labor unions have a monopoly on their respective industries. There is only one possible cause: they offer a highly demanded product at the right price.

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                      • #71
                        Is it just me, or is the philosophy espoused by HC, reg and Zevico unbelievably repugnant?
                        Graffiti in a public toilet
                        Do not require skill or wit
                        Among the **** we all are poets
                        Among the poets we are ****.

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                        • #72
                          You probably think my positions are significantly more libertarian than they actually are. Unless you consider getting rid of the minimum wage "unbelievably repugnant"...

                          You're going to have to throw Kuci on that list as well, since my opinions are basically the same as his (with a few differences, but the thrust is the same)
                          Last edited by Hauldren Collider; September 4, 2012, 12:15.
                          If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                          ){ :|:& };:

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by onodera View Post
                            Is it just me, or is the philosophy espoused by HC, reg and Zevico unbelievably repugnant?
                            No, it's not just you.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by C0ckney View Post
                              the effects on unemployment are the subject of strenuous academic debate. if we use the UK as an example, we have seen that the minimum wage there has raised the wages of the lowest paid, at a greater rate than inflation, with a negligible effect on employment.
                              This is bull****.



                              but more seriously, i think you'll find that most people value the pay cheque more than the 'values' they get from flipping burgers or whatever.
                              That was why I got a summer job. The experience was far more valuable than the money. The money was nice, and I suspect most of my peers work for the money, but that doesn't change the fact that the training aspect is vastly more valuable.
                              this is just a strange comment. in many industries (as diverse as publishing, fashion and banking) unpaid internships are a standard feature, i don't see how these industries are 'left wing'. a left wing position would be that unpaid internships are exploitative and serve to restrict entry into jobs to the children of the well off.
                              I can tell you that the unpaid internships in the DC area are exactly as Zevico is describing.
                              If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                              ){ :|:& };:

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                                This is bull****.
                                UK Minimum wage was introduced in April 1999. The unemployment rate at the time was 1.77m. It then pretty much steadily held/fell to a low of 1.4m in Sept 2004. It then rose slightly before rising high with the financial crisis. Here's a BBC interactive chart showing you are wrong (yet again).

                                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117

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