Thank you, labor unions ......

[Jon Miller]

(Even in regards to healthcare issues due to bankruptcy protections.)

I know plenty of people who skip out on healthcare in the US due to finance.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I agree with your last sentence.

JM

[Traianvs]

I thought religions created the concept of a weekend where you don't go to work?

It's the unions who did it. Before the rise of worker movements the only days off were religious holidays. Then the 6 day week and after that the 5 day working week came into vogue.

Where I live, in the early 19th century when industrialisation was booming, workers would do 14 hours of work a day in unhealthy work environments and extremely low wages, with child labour, no compensation when falling ill or having suffered a work injury (and usually just getting fired too) etc.

Those who oppose labour unions and standards are idiots or they're disingenuous bastards.

[Wezil]

I can oppose labour unions yet still support labour standards.

[dannubis]

Labor unions have their uses. Currently however in the western world they mostly/only are self serving bastards.

[rah]

Just because something helped in the past doesn't mean it still has the same value.
Over time, the mob got involved, and other corruption factors became common place.
What have they done good lately? That's how they have to be judged now.
Otherwise they're just living off past glories.

[Lorizael]

If unions are doing good now, it's in preventing the standards we enjoy from being eroded. I am not entirely convinced by this argument, however, and there's definitely a lot of bad being done by unions now.

[Hauldren Collider]

Exactly. HC does not have a good grasp on real life. He talks as if underpaid, and exploited employees in United States, and especially in other parts of the world, have meaningful choices.

I won't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US, if you are underpaid, you can always leave your job to find one that pays you properly. If you can't, then you aren't actually being underpaid. Market forces.

This is probably the 100th time this very concept, and in fact this very example, has been explained to you on this forum.

[Hauldren Collider]

If unions are doing good now, it's in preventing the standards we enjoy from being eroded. I am not entirely convinced by this argument, however, and there's definitely a lot of bad being done by unions now.

The unions preventing the standards from being eroded is precisely the problem. We have tons of overpaid union employees that would rather drive their companies into bankruptcy than accept a pay cut. Even worse, they'd rather put taxpayers on the hook for it. C.f. the GM bailouts.

[Zevico]

Minimum wage laws drive unemployment up. Their sole purpose is to protect the employees currently in the workforce from new, young employees competing for those or similar positions.

Fact is that most minimum wage jobs are for youths. For youths this means instilling values like hard work and reliability. That's more valuable than the actual paycheck. As they grow up, they join higher paid jobs and contribute more value to the economy because of these initial experiences.

That's why so many organisations offer internships--salary free-and so many youths sign on. They understand the value of work and its attractiveness to future real employers. Of course these are only available to the children of the rich--who can afford the prerequisites and education that comes with the "honour" of the payment-free internship. And invariably, so many of these organisations are the not for profit "left wing" groups. They might even include union think tanks calling for higher minimum wages.

The mind boggles at the cognitive dissonance, or more likely the sheer thoughtlessness, of the person who condones the unpaid internship and supports the minimum wage. Work experience for the rich, but not for the poor.

[Jon Miller]

Often youths work minimum wage jobs because they need to. It isn't about instilling values, it is about acquiring food or paying for college or having clothing or paying for a car.... or even paying for sister's glasses.

JM

[Jon Miller]

The unions preventing the standards from being eroded is precisely the problem. We have tons of overpaid union employees that would rather drive their companies into bankruptcy than accept a pay cut. Even worse, they'd rather put taxpayers on the hook for it. C.f. the GM bailouts.

I have a lot more sympathy for middle class union workers than I have for wealthy investment bankers.

JM

[Zevico]

Often youths work minimum wage jobs because they need to. It isn't about instilling values, it is about acquiring food or paying for college or having clothing or paying for a car.... or even paying for sister's glasses.

JM

That's absolutely true. On aggregate, however, the more youths who have work experience, the more long-term benefit to the economy. Such youths are more reliable on average, and given time, produce more value to the economy on average. This has the effect of rendering the economy more efficient and lowering the prices of the very consumer goods you just mentioned. The price of a car, glasses, clothing--all of these prices go down due to economic efficiencies. Letting as many youths work as possible is just one more way of increasing these efficiencies and raising the standard of living for the poorest members of the community.

[Jon Miller]

Depending on where the minimum wage is and where the economy is/etc, I am not at all sure that lowering minimum wage would increase available jobs.

(Obviously back when the US was basically at full employment, minimum wage rarely mattered, but when it was applicable it probably didn't decrease the available jobs by much)

Also, when determining minimum wage the wage needs to be compared to the amount of money that people require to live. There will be significant problems (things like black market, welfare, crime, and so on) if it is significantly lower.

JM

[regexcellent]

I have a lot more sympathy for middle class union workers than I have for wealthy investment bankers.

JM

You shouldn't, but your sympathy is irrelevant anyway.