Thank you, labor unions ......

[Dinner]

Can't have one without the other. Most teachers went into it wanting to teach. They did not expect to work in classrooms without money for books, much less computers. Some american classrooms are resembling third world schools. Solution - fire or cut way back on teachers - make them the villians. "They make $$$$ !! Why should the people, who went to University for years think they deserve $$$ for working a few hour per day for a few months of the year? Greedy F!ckng B!stards!!!"

Why not fund schools properly? That is the problem. Tax the corperations. Tax the rich. Tax investment income. Stop taxing the poor and middle class so much. Then you can afford schools, teachers, police, firefighters, and a professional civil service.

Warren Buffett has said a few points won't effect the rich.

While you are at it, stop subsidizing banks, oil, and mining companies - they shouldn't need it by now!

More power to teachers. If they burn out, and since they are being attacked from all sides, this will happen more often - make sure they retire will full pensions and are replaced by young graduates that are very well paid and not subjected to the f!cking b!llsh!t the current lot has to put up with.

The teaches are not the enemy. The anti-education fascists that make up some state and local governments are.

This is the hard truth some people in this thread are desperately avoiding in their rush to blame teachers.

[Jaguar]

I'd love to pay high wages to teachers - if you can make job offers and pay contingent on performance, like universities or any other employer.

When you went to school, weren't some teachers much better than others? Wouldn't you prefer for them all to be good? Why not let the school principals work on that? Have them give job offers and raises to the best teachers! Let them hire a new teacher if one of their current ones isn't getting the job done well. Surely there is some way to tell the difference between good teaching and bad teaching, so why don't we do it?

This works very well for most workplaces. And the ones that pay really well, and have robust competition for the well-paying jobs, get really good performance! NFL players are really good at football!

What the Chicago Teachers Union wants is a situation where the teaching equivalent of Rex Grossman keeps getting inexplicably handed the starting job, year after year, wasting away Superbowl chances. And I think that's shameful.

[Ben Kenobi]

Who is saying 5%, or any of the teachers are incompetent? Peer based reviews? Or parents saying, 'My Jonnie's a bright boy - Jonnie quit touchin' yourself! - the bad teacher is the reason he don't get differential calculus!" ?

Probably closer to 5 percent competent with the halo effect getting you there. Anyways, read up. Dinodoc posted why. Those student proficiency numbers are atrociously bad.

[Ben Kenobi]

What the Chicago Teachers Union wants is a situation where the teaching equivalent of Rex Grossman keeps getting inexplicably handed the starting job, year after year, wasting away Superbowl chances. And I think that's shameful.

Personally I would use Norv Turner but YMMV. Norv actually wins almost as much as he loses.

[giblets]

I'd love to pay high wages to teachers - if you can make job offers and pay contingent on performance, like universities or any other employer.

When you went to school, weren't some teachers much better than others? Wouldn't you prefer for them all to be good? Why not let the school principals work on that? Have them give job offers and raises to the best teachers! Let them hire a new teacher if one of their current ones isn't getting the job done well. Surely there is some way to tell the difference between good teaching and bad teaching, so why don't we do it?

This works very well for most workplaces. And the ones that pay really well, and have robust competition for the well-paying jobs, get really good performance! NFL players are really good at football!

What the Chicago Teachers Union wants is a situation where the teaching equivalent of Rex Grossman keeps getting inexplicably handed the starting job, year after year, wasting away Superbowl chances. And I think that's shameful.

You can measure the quality of a football player without encouraging them to play football badly. I get the impression that too much emphasis on standardized testing could be detrimental to the quality of education when people "teach to the test". Maybe principals could assess the skill (but not effort put forth) of a teacher by having people sit in and observe their class from time to time.

[Jaguar]

Cop-out. I wrote this:

Surely there is some way to tell the difference between good teaching and bad teaching, so why don't we do it?

Testing could be one way, but there might be better ways, like taping the classes and watching "game tape" like a coach.

[giblets]

Cop-out. I wrote this:

Surely there is some way to tell the difference between good teaching and bad teaching, so why don't we do it?

Testing could be one way, but there might be better ways, like taping the classes and watching "game tape" like a coach.

Yes, although even very good teachers might balk at being taped all day every day.

[Lorizael]

Maybe principals could assess the skill (but not effort put forth) of a teacher by having people sit in and observe their class from time to time.

This does happen.

[Jaguar]

I like the idea of sending an experienced peer reviewer from another school to sit in on three or four classes per term as well.

[Lorizael]

Testing could be one way, but there might be better ways, like taping the classes and watching "game tape" like a coach.

This is done, too.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, although even very good teachers might balk at being taped all day every day.

Why? NFL players have game tape. Very good teachers would love having their lessons filmed and reviewed. They could then sell the lessons to other people....

[snoopy369]

What is the cost of living in Chicago? is it more expensive to live there than, say East St. Louis? If so, teachers (and others public pay roll tyoes) should be paid so they can afford a standard of living.

Who is saying 5%, or any of the teachers are incompetent? Peer based reviews? Or parents saying, 'My Jonnie's a bright boy - Jonnie quit touchin' yourself! - the bad teacher is the reason he don't get differential calculus!" ?

70k a year in Chicago is sufficient for a family of four to live reasonably (not in a fancy neighborhood, but reasonably). It's probably the equivalent of 55k a year or so in Topeka. It's well above the average for a professional worker. I will note that the 70k number is skewed by the long tenured teachers who earn a lot - a starting teacher isn't getting 70k, or probably even 50k.

And honestly I wouldn't mind paying 70k a year, if the numbers were a bit less skewed and really good teachers were compensated more than poor ones. Though a 25% pay raise from that during a recession (or during the aftermath of one) is pretty steep to ask given most of the people paying for that pay raise aren't getting 25% more...

[snoopy369]

For reference:

http://www.nucleuslearning.com/content/teacher-pay-scale-across-canada

Canadian teachers (well, non-Quebec) make about the same on average (I assume a roughly equivalent exchange rate). Not sure about taxes (higher?) and cost of living (???).

[Ben Kenobi]

Canadian teachers (well, non-Quebec) make about the same on average (I assume a roughly equivalent exchange rate). Not sure about taxes (higher?) and cost of living (???).

Most staples in Canada are 2x as high there than here. Dunno about Chicago..

[snoopy369]

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States&city1=Winnipeg&city2=Chicago%2C+IL

Winnipeg and Chicago are apparently fairly similar once you include rent (Chicago rent is higher, Winnipeg almost-everything-else is higher).