Philly court vs. the Papacy

[Ben Kenobi]

So one of the merits of your proposed alternative is... the criminal suffers less for their crime...?

It's almost like Catholicism doesn't teach that suffering can be beneficial.

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't rape boys.

Uh oh. You're in for it now. You mean the victims aren't just as likely to be girls? I wonder why that might be. Male priests raping boys. Must be because they can't get married to the woman of their dreams.

[loinburger]

It's almost like Catholicism doesn't teach that suffering can be beneficial.

Why would you single out pedophile priests as the sole target of prison reform?

"Won't somebody please think of the pedophile priests??? They're suffering too much!"
"What about the suffering of the other 99.9% of criminals?"
"Meh, whatever."

[Ben Kenobi]

No. I'm asking for the same single system of criminal justice be applied to all

You're asking that Catholic priests be tried under English law. If, as you stated, there is no statute of limitations, then I'm against Catholic priests being tried under English law. Basic human rights. Why would I favor priests being stripped of something that I believe is a fundamental part of any civilized criminal justice system? Or for that matter, anyone else?

You're going to lose this- but how badly do you want to lose?

Didn't England try to kill us all once before? How did that work out? What are you going to say when the last vestiges of the Test Act are binned? I'm looking forward to the day when the King converts back.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not sure which laws you mean ...

China has laws that anyone who is a bishop of the Catholic church is to be executed, unless they are a bishop of the 'Chinese' Catholic church, the bishops who are appointed by the government not the pope. This is basically the exact argument that the West faced wrt investiture. The entire Catholic church in China is underground.

I don't see how it makes sense to subject prelates in China to the legal system there, when the legal system will execute them for exercising their office as a bishop.

This is part of my concern. England has a terrible history with regards to respecting religious freedom, so I also don't see why the Catholic priests should be tried there by the local laws.

The vatican is free to make up his own rules within its state territory.

You might want to reread the concordat. On some issues, yes, but not others. This has nothing to do with Vatican City vs Italy, but everything to do with priests and bishops abroad serving their parishes and episcopies. One of the rights accorded to priests within the Catholic church is the right to an ecclesiastical trial by his peers, but this is voluntary. The Church will not force anyone to accept this, but anyone who chooses not to do this, will be left to deal with the secular authorities. So any priest who is getting tried by the secular authorities has already chosen not to seek the ecclesiastical trial.

It also shouldn´t be a problem for a worldly jury to impose a sentence in which the convicted person first serves a prison sentence and then is extradited to vatican state territory.

International law is pretty much against someone convicted for a crime in one country, getting convicted after serving his time by another country. This is why they have extradition - to decide where the crime will be tried. The real question is, who has jurisdiction? England or the Vatican? For the laymen, England, I would argue for the priests, the Vatican. Now, if, as in this case here, the issue is Church officials lying about the abuse that did occur - they've abused the same privilege that protected them, and therefore they shouldn't be protected.

Jesus talks to his disciples about paying taxes as ordinary citizens should do,

And where does Jesus say that his disciples ought to be tried by local authorities? Jesus was executed unjustly by the local authorities. Paul appealed all the way up to Rome as his right as a Roman citizen, to be tried by their laws, and not the local laws.

[Ben Kenobi]

"Of course non-Catholics shouldn't get their own justice system - their system is different than the Catholic system, and since only the Catholic system is valid this means that any system that deviates from the Catholic system is invalid."

Please point out where I have stated that I believe that Catholic laypeople should be treated any differently than non-Catholics?

First you tried to pin Sharia on me, but now you've backed off when your argument got obliterated.

As for establishing the validity of the Catholic system, that comes after the particulars of the system have been established. Your post showed you didn't understand the particulars, and it makes little sense to argue over the validity if there are disagreements as to what it actually constitutes.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why would you single out pedophile priests as the sole target of prison reform?

And exactly where have I argued that this extraterritoriality should apply only to this segment? I suspect that very soon, we shall see 'hate crimes' being used to try to arrest priests that don't knuckle down under the oppression of the state, as has already happened in Canada with Boissoin.

[giblets]

Uh oh. You're in for it now. You mean the victims aren't just as likely to be girls? I wonder why that might be. Male priests raping boys. Must be because they can't get married to the woman of their dreams.

Who knows? There could be more boys who are in positions that make the vulnerable to getting abused by priests.

[giblets]

It's almost like Catholicism doesn't teach that suffering can be beneficial.

Obviously not for themselves or the pope wouldn't live in a palace.

[Ben Kenobi]

There could be more boys who are in positions that make the vulnerable to getting abused by priests.

I see.

So the fact that the are unmarried and celibate has nothing to do with priest abuse. Cool.

[giblets]

I see.

So the fact that the are unmarried and celibate has nothing to do with priest abuse. Cool.

A celibacy requirement could make normal people who are interested in sex with adults less likely to become priests.

[Ben Kenobi]

Obviously not for themselves or the pope wouldn't live in a palace.

Hey, here's a fun question.

If people voluntarily give money to the pope, wouldn't the fact that he has a palace demonstrate that Catholics in general are willing to suffer?

[giblets]

Hey, here's a fun question.

If people voluntarily give money to the pope, wouldn't the fact that he has a palace demonstrate that Catholics in general are willing to suffer?

They could simply be stupid. That would also explain why they are Catholics.

[Ben Kenobi]

A celibacy requirement could make normal people who are interested in sex with adults less likely to become priests.

Interesting. So the priests who do rape boys have something fundamentally wrong with them that wouldn't change even if the celibacy requirement were removed.

[Ben Kenobi]

They could simply be stupid. That would also explain why they are Catholics.

Would you equate stupidity with voluntarily tithing to the pope to the point where you have to forgo worldly pleasures?