Hello everybody

[MRT144]

Well, I beg to differ on that, I think we can obtain reliable knowledge through scripture, and I think that in discussing why the Church teaches what it does, requires discussion of scripture. Arguing that because there are differences that reliable information cannot be obtained is a terrible argument. Disagreement is how one obtains reliable information if you work with a dialectic. So it's not even vaguely a Christian argument.



Only if one believes that the contributions of the laity are less, by definition than the clergy. You are asserting here that the best, and only way to adequately serve God is to be a priest. Personally, I find that an amusing presupposition.



"he made them male and female". If we were meant to be the same, why were we made different?

The Bible is a faulty source for explanation biological differences.

[MikeH]

Racism is not the recognition of differences between people with varying genetics, rather it is prejudice based on this.

Sexism is not the recognition of differences between people with varying sex, rather it is prejudice based on this.

Homophobic is a bit different than the above, but it is not about recognizing or perceiving differences but about prejudice.

You can recognize difference, that is not 'ism'. It is when you have prejudice against another for that difference that you go the 'ism' route.

JM

And having different expectations on what roles people can or should play in life counts as prejudice. I would say that "you are allowed to do that job, but you can't have the job title that someone of a different sex is allowed to have" is sexist, and pretty pointless sexism.

Bit like our gay marriage being called "civil partnership" pointless homophobia.

[Jon Miller]

We call a 'male' human a man and a 'female' human a woman.

I don't see what your problem is.

And if you hold the same philosophical view with me (which I think is probably our difference), than I don't see why you feel strongly that there is no difference between men and women.

JM

[kentonio]

Lmao, link needed.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/1...=1#post6034949

Also known as the thread that just kept on giving.

[MikeH]

I'm not saying that women can't do something, I'm just saying that women, as a whole, choose to do things differently. That's not to say that some women are not very different from other women, and same with the men. But I am saying that we can make valid empirical observations on the aggregate and draw from them conclusions.

As long as you are happy for them to have the same choices, which includes which jobs they can choose to do, it isn't sexist. If you start saying men can't teach at pre-schools or women can't be preachers then it's prejudice.

[BlackCat]

This might be why nuns seem to not be as corrupted as priests over the history of the Catholic church.

JM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899

Spain's stolen babies and the families who lived a lie

Spanish society has been shaken by allegations of the theft and trafficking of thousands of babies by nuns, priests and doctors, which started under Franco and continued up to the 1990s.

I first met Manoli Pagador in Getafe, in a working-class suburb of Madrid. She was attending a meeting for people affected by the scandal Spaniards call "ninos robados" - stolen children.

She has three daughters and lots of grandchildren, but she has never got over the loss of her first-born - a son - nearly 40 years ago.

She had come to think she was crazy for believing he was alive, instead of dead and buried as hospital doctors had told her.

"Now," she said, gripping my hand tightly. "Look around the room at the other women here. All like me. The same background. The same experience. I'm not mad and my family finally believes me."
Continue reading the main story
Spain's stolen babies

How many? More than 900 cases are being investigated, but new cases are still coming to light - lawyers say the total could reach 300,000
How long? Over a period of 40-50 years, beginning under Franco, up to the 1990s
Who benefited? Initially the Fascists by bringing up the children of their enemies - later children were taken from parents judged to be morally or economically deficient and placed with approved Catholic, often childless, families
Why did it take so long to expose? The Church and medical profession are highly respected, and Spanish law does not require the biological mother's name on the birth certificate

In 1971 Manoli, who was 23 at the time and not long married, gave birth to what she was told was a healthy baby boy, but he was immediately taken away for what were called routine tests.

Nine interminable hours passed. "Then, a nun, who was also a nurse, coldly informed me that my baby had died," she says.

They would not let her have her son's body, nor would they tell her when the funeral would be.

Did she not think to question the hospital staff?

"Doctors, nuns?" she says, almost in horror. "I couldn't accuse them of lying. This was Franco's Spain. A dictatorship. Even now we Spaniards tend not to question authority."

The scale of the baby trafficking was unknown until this year, when two men - Antonio Barroso and Juan Luis Moreno, childhood friends from a seaside town near Barcelona - discovered that they had been bought from a nun. Their parents weren't their real parents, and their life had been built on a lie.

Juan Luis Moreno discovered the truth when the man he had been brought to call "father" was on his deathbed.
Antonio Barroso and Juan Luis Moreno Antonio Barroso and Juan Luis Moreno took their story to the papers - and opened the floodgates

"He said, 'I bought you from a priest in Zaragoza'. He said that Antonio had been bought as well."

The pair were hurt and angry. They say they felt like two dogs that had been bought at a pet shop. An adoption lawyer they turned to for advice said he came across cases like theirs all the time.

The pair went to the press and suddenly the story was everywhere. Mothers began to come forward across Spain with disturbingly similar stories.
'Approved families'

After months of requests from the BBC, the Spanish government finally put forward Angel Nunez from the justice ministry to talk to me about Spain's stolen children.

Asked if babies were stolen, Mr Nunez replied: "Without a doubt".

"How many?" I asked.

"I don't dare to come up with figures," he answered carefully. "But from the volume of official investigations I dare to say there were many."

Lawyers believe that up to 300,000 babies were taken.

The practice of removing children from parents deemed "undesirable" and placing them with "approved" families, began in the 1930s under the dictator General Francisco Franco.

At that time, the motivation may have been ideological. But years later, it seemed to change - babies began to be taken from parents considered morally - or economically - deficient. It became a money-spinner, too.

The scandal is closely linked to the Catholic Church, which under Franco assumed a prominent role in Spain's social services including hospitals, schools and children's homes.

Nuns and priests compiled waiting lists of would-be adoptive parents, while doctors were said to have lied to mothers about the fate of their children.

The name of one doctor, Dr Eduardo Vela, has come up in a number of victim investigations.

Dr Vela is confronted with the allegations

In 1981, Civil Registry sources indicate that 70% of births at Dr Vela's San Ramon clinic in Madrid were registered as "mother unknown".

This was legal under Spanish law, and was meant to protect the anonymity of unmarried mothers. It is alleged that this was also widely used to cover up baby theft and trafficking.

Dr Vela stands accused of telling women their babies had died when they had not and handing over those newborn children to other couples for cash.

A Spanish magazine published photographs of a dead baby kept in a freezer at the San Ramon clinic, supposedly to show mothers that their child had died.

He refused to give the BBC an interview. But, by coincidence, I had recently given birth at a clinic he founded, so I was able to book an appointment with him.

We met at his private practice in his home in Madrid. The man painted as a monster in the Spanish media was old and smiley, but his smile soon disappeared when I confessed to being a journalist.

Dr Vela grabbed a metal crucifix which had been standing on his desk. He moved towards me brandishing it in my face. "Do you know what this is, Katya?" he said. "I have always acted in his name. Always for the good of the children and to protect the mothers. Enough."

Dr Vela insists he always acted within the law.
Empty graves

After Franco's death in 1975, the major political parties agreed an amnesty to help smooth the transition to democracy.
Continue reading the main story
Find out more
Juan Luis Moreno as a baby with his adoptive parents

This World: Spain's Stolen Babies, BBC Two, 9pm, Tuesday 18 October
Assignment, BBC World Service Radio, 3rd November

But this amnesty law has never been repealed, so attempts to investigate Spain's baby trafficking as a national crime against humanity have been rejected by the country's judiciary and resisted by its politicians.

"Thirty-five years have passed since the death of the dictator… Evidently, we still have problems from the past. Social problems and personal or even cultural problems and the policy of this government has been trying to solve them," says the justice ministry's Angel Nunez.

The Spanish government's refusal to set up a national inquiry into the scandal has frustrated affected families, who in many cases are carrying out their own investigations, as best they can.

Babies' graves have been dug up across the country for DNA-testing. Some have revealed nothing but a pile of stones, while others have contained adult remains.

Spaniards have flocked to clinics to take DNA tests in the hope of reuniting their families.

The first few matches have now been made between so-called stolen children and their biological mothers. But there could potentially have already been so many more. Data protection laws prohibit DNA banks from sharing or cross-referencing data and the Spanish government has yet to fulfil its promise to set up a national DNA database.

Manoli Pagador is still tortured by the events of 40 years ago. She told me she has been taking medication ever since.

"You can't just say to yourself, I have to forget it and that's it.

"It's not something you forget, it's with you for the rest of your life."

[MikeH]

We call a 'male' human a man and a 'female' human a woman.

I don't see what your problem is.

And if you hold the same philosophical view with me (which I think is probably our difference), than I don't see why you feel strongly that there is no difference between men and women.

JM

The point is that there is no important difference that should change how we legislate what they should be allowed to do.

[MikeH]

We call a 'male' human a man and a 'female' human a woman.

As an aside, I'm all for calling and thinking of everyone a person unless it's particularly relevant to the point being made what sex they are.

[Jon Miller]

As an aside, I'm all for calling and thinking of everyone a person unless it's particularly relevant to the point being made what sex they are.

As I said, I think we have philosophical differences. Aristotle versus Plato, if you will.

JM

[MRT144]

Jesus, reading that thread is amazing. Ben has no morality that doesn't assert the supremacy of his core beliefs of what is awesome and what is not.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes Ben, what are the differences that disqualify women from being priests? (without using scriptures please)

From the standpoint of an outsider?

It just doesn't work. All the churches that have done it are losing members precipitously. You need to have something for the men to do, because if there's no men there, then the church will just slowly dwindle away. Get the men in and keep them, and the women will follow.

This is really nothing new rah. It's been tried before, and it didn't work then and it's not going to work now.

[Ben Kenobi]

As long as you are happy for them to have the same choices, which includes which jobs they can choose to do, it isn't sexist. If you start saying men can't teach at pre-schools or women can't be preachers then it's prejudice.

Getting back to firefighters, if a woman can meet the same standard, then sure. But we shouldn't have two different standards. If a particular woman can't meet the same standard as the men, then she shouldn't be doing that job.

[Ben Kenobi]

If your conclusion was "they don't do as well as white students because they are fundamentally different." then yes, of course.

So it would also be racist to state that the reason why most olympic sprinters are black is because white people don't run enough?

Again, it depends what your conclusion is. Men are also less likely to work full time after they have children, but the difference is smaller because societally women take on board the majority of the childcare. If you ignore that for your own ends then yes. As we change our maternity/paternity laws here to make them more equal so men have the same rights as women we're seeing that slowly start to even out.

My conclusion was that even if you changed the laws, you'd still see a substantial difference.

What are they?

Men are more willing to take risks, more willing to travel and work longer hours than women. Women in general I've found to be much better socially, much better at keeping in contact with each other and their family, have better understanding of emotions and how to get people to do what they want.

Again, it's not an exhaustive list, but those are the ones I'm most confident in stating.

[Ben Kenobi]

Maybe this thread will get to 1k....

[rah]

This is really nothing new rah. It's been tried before, and it didn't work then and it's not going to work now.

Again, this has nothing to do with our argument.

The practice is sexist. Simply say yes it is sexist. I really don't care why you don't agree with it or say it would destroy the church.
Just because it's been tried before and didn't work doesn't make it not sexist.

Geeze.

Please stay with the program. I don't care about your justifications for supporting a sexist policy.

Just say "it's Sexist but I'm OK with it because my faith says it's OK".