Hello everybody

[Ben Kenobi]

Fortunately, other posters can be relied upon to quote those bits for me to read. Like "men need the priesthood because they need something to do." Yes, all of the men stick around because of the one percent or less of them who are officiating the service. Women don't need that, but if there weren't that one dude up there the guys would all be terribly discontent. And it's not like they can become involved in the church in some other way, like singing/chanting or participating in lay ministry. Nope. You need that tiny minority of clergy to keep the men.

As you noted earlier, the Orthodox church is doing quite well. I don't think that's a coincidence that they are trying to do their best to keep the services the same so that men find them attractive.

[MRT144]

Catholics fled to America to escape persecution....

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA, no seriously, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH

THE SAME 13 COLONIES THAT HAD ANTI CATHOLIC LAWS YOU ****ING IDIOT. JESUS CHRIST I WISH I COULD BOX YOUR EARS TILL YOU WERE DEAF BUT GOD ALREADY DID THAT FOR ME.

I dont even care if that's off color, ITS BLUE HUMOR TIME.

[Elok]

Much as I dislike siding with BK even a little bit, I think Maryland was a major haven for Catholics during the various religious troubles. It's named for the Virgin Mary, Lord Baltimore and all those people were Catholics, et cetera, et cetera.

Now, I'm sure Catholics got whooped in, say, Boston, but Maryland was Catholic-friendly for a good while.

[Elok]

As you noted earlier, the Orthodox church is doing quite well. I don't think that's a coincidence that they are trying to do their best to keep the services the same so that men find them attractive.

It's not the male priesthood--at least, it's not just the male priesthood. My Khouria (priest's wife) did an article on why the OC is attractive to men. As I recall, two reasons were commonly cited by male converts: Jesus is presented as more masculine and the strong emphasis on ascetic struggle appeals to men. Plenty of churches have only male priests. And we don't keep services the same so men find them attractive. We keep services the same because we have a borderline-neurotic interest in keeping EVERYTHING the same. That's basically our identity in a nutshell: we just don't change that much, and when we do it's slow, incremental, and accompanied by endless consultation of St. Basil the Great. We're still just beginning to unite the American churches administratively, and we've been on this continent for about as long as the Constitution.

EDIT: Here's the article she wrote. To be fair, it does mention male leadership, but along with a bunch of other things. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/42390.htm I can't say for myself, since I've never been Catholic or Protestant.

[MRT144]

Much as I dislike siding with BK even a little bit, I think Maryland was a major haven for Catholics during the various religious troubles. It's named for the Virgin Mary, Lord Baltimore and all those people were Catholics, et cetera, et cetera.

Now, I'm sure Catholics got whooped in, say, Boston, but Maryland was Catholic-friendly for a good while.

It was until it wasn't. Lord Baltimore was sacked.

[Elok]

Yeah, but at some point it was Catholic-friendly. I'm bad on history, but wasn't Pennsylvania fairly tolerant in general for a time too?

[MRT144]

Yeah, but at some point it was Catholic-friendly. I'm bad on history, but wasn't Pennsylvania fairly tolerant in general for a time too?

NERP.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not the male priesthood--at least, it's not just the male priesthood. My Khouria (priest's wife) did an article on why the OC is attractive to men. As I recall, two reasons were commonly cited by male converts: Jesus is presented as more masculine and the strong emphasis on ascetic struggle appeals to men. Plenty of churches have only male priests. And we don't keep services the same so men find them attractive. We keep services the same because we have a borderline-neurotic interest in keeping EVERYTHING the same. That's basically our identity in a nutshell: we just don't change that much, and when we do it's slow, incremental, and accompanied by endless consultation of St. Basil the Great. We're still just beginning to unite the American churches administratively, and we've been on this continent for about as long as the Constitution.

Well, I don't see why we can't take some things from you folks that you are doing right - after all from our standpoint we are all part of the same church.

[Ben Kenobi]

It was until it wasn't. Lord Baltimore was sacked.

Catholics in Maryland were allowed to vote, they weren't permitted to vote in England. And the catholicism in MA, really only dates back to after the Famine. Most of it comes from the Irish. Maryland's a bit of an oddity, as a haven for English Catholics, just like Lancashire in England. Lancashire I believe is the only majority Catholic area in England, and I'm sure the English posters will be happy to correct me if I'm incorrect.

[kentonio]

Probably not as we are a secular country who pay little or no attention to religion. I wouldn't have the first idea which counties are majority catholic, muslim or protestant.

[Jon Miller]

It's not the male priesthood--at least, it's not just the male priesthood. My Khouria (priest's wife) did an article on why the OC is attractive to men. As I recall, two reasons were commonly cited by male converts: Jesus is presented as more masculine and the strong emphasis on ascetic struggle appeals to men. Plenty of churches have only male priests. And we don't keep services the same so men find them attractive. We keep services the same because we have a borderline-neurotic interest in keeping EVERYTHING the same. That's basically our identity in a nutshell: we just don't change that much, and when we do it's slow, incremental, and accompanied by endless consultation of St. Basil the Great. We're still just beginning to unite the American churches administratively, and we've been on this continent for about as long as the Constitution.

EDIT: Here's the article she wrote. To be fair, it does mention male leadership, but along with a bunch of other things. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/42390.htm I can't say for myself, since I've never been Catholic or Protestant.

A lot of people seem to have a problem with 'keeping things the same'. This just means they don't understand the conservative mindset and it must not be 'keeping things the same' but instead bigotry/etc.

The truth is that liberals should be tolerant of the conservative mindset too.

That does not mean that they shouldn't vote to change things. It does mean that they shouldn't denigrate everyone who views 'keeping things the same' as important as bigots.

JM

[MikeH]

As I said, I think we have philosophical differences. Aristotle versus Plato, if you will.

JM

I guess so.

I think that if the title is really irrelevant, there is no logical reason not to allow everyone to use the same title.

I genuinely can't see the counter-argument to that.

If the title doesn't matter, let them have the title.
If people don't want them to have the title, doesn't that mean that they think there is some relevance to the title, so it does matter?

[kentonio]

The truth is that liberals should be tolerant of the conservative mindset too.

That does not mean that they shouldn't vote to change things. It does mean that they shouldn't denigrate everyone who views 'keeping things the same' as important as bigots.

That kind of depends whether 'keeping things the same' means that a group continues to have their basic rights trampled on. When that is the case, **** the conservtive mindset quite frankly.

[Kidlicious]

So a male clergy is key for recruitment and retention-- hhmmmmm

The local neighborhood church has a female (late 20s) clergy-- she retains all the seniors and is building a core of young families that relate well to her as she has a small child and a husband around as well-- Hubby helps with the mens club ( a church group that has its sole function as sharing a beer on the first Thursday of every month)

How many female pastors do you know at megachurches? Not many. Most are men. One took over a megachurch here in Tulsa and the church is loosing members. The most popular preachers are men, by a long shot. That does't mean they are better, but it seems they are much more popular.

[dannubis]

Loot at the flock dude...