Will the real Christians like Father Michael Ryan please stand up?

[Wezil]

You lack reasoning ability.

Or are a troll.

I am going with the second.

JM

Right Jon. 2012 USA = Nazi Germany.

[Wezil]

(As I said, my particular group is maybe 1 million strong, but a significant fraction does not think that baby killing is baby killing.)

Finally.

Maybe they know to say such a thing would DEMAND action?

[Wezil]

Keep calling me names though. It goes well with your ****ty argument.

[Elok]

You'd think a massive number of people could get motivated to stop baby killing, no? Unless of course it isn't really baby killing...

What, like the massive, concerted grass-roots efforts we put in to stop the mass murders/genocides in places like Rwanda, Darfur, Cambodia, Uganda and the Balkans? And probably about twenty other places in the last fifty years that barely even made the news?

I guess murder and killing draws a more visceral response from this atheist than it does from religious folks. Very strange.

Even stranger: this religious person has learned the limitations of throwing epithets at people, and can see when a tactic isn't working.

[Wezil]

My argument isn't with you Elok. I haven't heard you calling people baby killers.

[Wezil]

What, like the massive, concerted grass-roots efforts we put in to stop the mass murders/genocides in places like Rwanda, Darfur, Cambodia, Uganda and the Balkans? And probably about twenty other places in the last fifty years that barely even made the news?

Do you not see a vast difference in ones ability to affect change in their own country vs. on the other side of the world?

[Jon Miller]

Where did I ever say that the US had concentration camps. What I was comparing was throwing my life away against the evil of Nazis and throwing my life away against the evil of Abortion.

In both cases there is reasonable actions which help the situation, and charging in and throwing my life away to no purpose.

Or I can go back to the slavery issue.

I could walk into the slave holders plantation, tell him that slavery was monstrous and the slaves were to leave and come with me.

Or I could talk to people and campaign and do things to convince people.

Direct confrontation, civil disobedience, they only are reasonable and a useful (or even non-harmful) response at certain situations.

This is obvious to anyone who thinks about it honestly, and is not just trying to troll or be an ass. And being an ass is your MO on every other argument I have seen you take part in.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Do you not see a vast difference in ones ability to affect change in their own country vs. on the other side of the world?

I have just as much ability to use civil disobedience or violence to cause change my own country as I do on the other side of the world.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Finally.

Maybe they know to say such a thing would DEMAND action?

Huh? Are you capable of honestly reading what I have wrote?

Or is your only point to attack me because you recognize on some level what a monstrous thing you have been and are still supporting. The only way that you can assuage your own conscience is to demonize me, then you will be free to ignore the facts that I present.

JM

[Wezil]

Where did I ever say that the US had concentration camps. What I was comparing was throwing my life away against the evil of Nazis and throwing my life away against the evil of Abortion.

JM

FFS Jon! You aren't this stupid. Stop being obtuse.

Political dissent in Nazi Germany would have you sent to the camps. You can engage in civil disobedience in 2012 USA without fear of being imprisoned and starved.

Yes, you may do jail time (warm with plenty of food) for a short period. Hardly "throwing your life away".

Your analogy STILL sucks.

It's particularly sad since you don't even need an analogy. Your current situation applies. Killing is happening on a massive scale in your current society and you write a few letters and call people baby killers online. That is the extent of the sacrifice you are prepared to make.

[Wezil]

I have just as much ability to use civil disobedience or violence to cause change my own country as I do on the other side of the world.

JM

Duh! You have it backwards.

eg - I won't hold you responsible for failing to act against the baby killing in Canada. You are much more limited in your ability to act in that case.

[Wezil]

Google "Linda Gibbons" for an example of someone that does have the courage of her convictions.

I personally think she's a kook but I can't deny her sincerity. She's done more to raise the issue than you will with a lifetime of baby killer insults.

[Jon Miller]

FFS Jon! You aren't this stupid. Stop being obtuse.

Political dissent in Nazi Germany would have you sent to the camps. You can engage in civil disobedience in 2012 USA without fear of being imprisoned and starved.

Yes, you may do jail time (warm with plenty of food) for a short period. Hardly "throwing your life away".

Your analogy STILL sucks.

It's particularly sad since you don't even need an analogy. Your current situation applies. Killing is happening on a massive scale in your current society and you write a few letters and call people baby killers online. That is the extent of the sacrifice you are prepared to make.

Give me an example of something that I could do that would make a difference.

Chaining myself to the clinics doors won't.

Refusing to pay taxes won't.

Kidnapping a woman who is about to have an abortion might (for one life), would not help things overall, and I have already said that I don't think that violence would help anything here.

Give me an example of something that I would which would do anything positive at all.

Saying 'civil disobedience' means nothing.

Being a meaningless martyr is stupid and would do nothing to improve the situation at all except make it more difficult for me to do anything to improve the situation later.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Google "Linda Gibbons" for an example of someone that does have the courage of her convictions.

I personally think she's a kook but I can't deny her sincerity. She's done more to raise the issue than you will with a lifetime of baby killer insults.

She has done a little, and a lot more than I would do if I quit paying taxes.

But has she saved one life? Probably not.

You accuse me of not doing anything or being willing to risk something. When I see somewhere I can make an impact, where my risk would be worth while, I will.

No, I am not willing to spend 8 years in jail to save 0 lives.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Honestly, I didn't even call pro-choice people pro-baby killing until recently.

And that was mostly to prove a point.

But maybe it is worth doing, as pro-baby killing people generally seem to be pretty good at ignoring Elok, Ozzie, and previous me.

You didn't make an argument with me before, because I didn't challenge you. Now I have, and apparently it has made more of an impact on Apolyton than my years of being reasonable and considerate and calmly being pro-life.

JM
(Not sure it has made a positive impact, but maybe someone will think about what is going on? You have at least seemed to think about what I think is going on. Which you didn't based on my previous behavior.)