Watching "Drugs, Inc."

[Jon Miller]

Sorry, but I really would like this answered. Is the general trend that people become addicted to honest-to-Satan legitimate opiates, can't afford the real thing, and then turn to the ghoulish homemade crap? Because if you're arguing that they're using it because they're addicted to it because they just started using krokodil one day, that's not really an answer. It'd also be nice if we had some kind of report or study to back this up; it's no good arguing about what do do with drug users, or evaluating their mental state, if you don't understand why they use the drugs in the first place.

Most are former heroin addicts, and I think would use heroin if it was available.

JM

[Elok]

Having reviewed your argument, I am uncertain what exactly you and Tupac are arguing about. It seems you agree that heroin needs to be legalized, at least in some sense. So what's the problem?

[Jon Miller]

My problem is with the statement that people should be able to do what they wish/buy/sell/etc.

I think it is obvious that this isn't the case with some opiate addicts. They are less capable of making decisions for themselves than many children/most mentally ill/etc.

What form the restrictions take (no children/heroin subsidies but not legalized/etc) is a place for discussion.

I don't think that just straight up legalization will fix the 'problem', because part of the problem is that some oppiate addicts are not at all rational.

JM

[Elok]

So, what do you propose as an alternative to letting them do what they want in this case? It seems to me that actually preventing them from doing what they want would require something more or less equivalent to imprisonment, if not imprisonment in fact. But IIRC you've said you oppose jailing users.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

We have a good example with alcohol/nicotine.

Over 18 you should be able to buy it all from licenced shops, light stuff you could buy in the supermarket with the proof of age, and part of the tax proceeds should be used to fund rehab centres and education drives on both potential harm, but also correct usage.

Pretty simple, but seems like a long way off. US tried to prohibit alcohol, we have seen the results, the same ones are with "drugs" or other substances that are deemed inappropriate by some arbitrary standards. Drugs was is no better in containing drugs than prohibition was in containing alcohol, and the side effects of that war are just as bad too.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

dp

[Berzerker]

how has addiction been reduced by prohibition?

[Jon Miller]

So, what do you propose as an alternative to letting them do what they want in this case? It seems to me that actually preventing them from doing what they want would require something more or less equivalent to imprisonment, if not imprisonment in fact. But IIRC you've said you oppose jailing users.

Are you unaware how europe handles their heroin addicts?

There is a lot of ground between imprisonment and 'do whatever you want'. Most people, even in the US, who can't do whatever they want are not imprisoned.

JM

[Jon Miller]

how has addiction been reduced by prohibition?

I haven't been, in general, arguing in favor of prohibition.

However, it does seem that usage is higher in places where a drug is legalized (everything else being the same).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Examples of not imprisoned but still restricted are rehab centers and use only allowed in licensed shops. Both things that europe has tried and would be better than imprisonment (in general).

There would probably be some that would be 'ill enough' to need 'imprisoned' just like the mentally ill. But that would be only the worse cases (and all are mentally ill anyways, as I understand it).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Do other people in this thread have experience with close relatives who are or have been addicted to opiates (and especially while having children/etc) and other drugs?

Actually, from my experience addiction to opiates (such as those you get from the hospital) is much much worse than years of binges/casual use of other drugs (including meth/etc). This doesn't directly relate to money/crime/etc either.

JM

[Berzerker]

3 people with alcoholism, 2 died from it

[Jon Miller]

My experience with friends/family with alcohol addiction (or caffiene addiction) is that it is nothing like addiction to opiates.

JM

[Berzerker]

both will end up passed out, but until then the heroin addict has better balance

hell, that probably aint true... the heroin addict is just slower getting to the floor

or was that the crack addict?

[loinburger]

Why hasn't Kidicious **** on this thread yet?