Watching "Drugs, Inc."

[Jon Miller]

They also can't buy safe desomorphine made by professionals.

The issue is one of money.

My understanding is that they would get heroin/etc if they could afford it.

The most direct thing to handle this would be heroin subsidies like some of europe has.

Doesn't change the fact that their behavior is not at all rational.

JM

[Tupac Shakur]

There's absolutely no need for subsidies. Heroin and desomorphine prices would be much lower if they were legal. Problem solved.

[Jon Miller]

Doesn't solve the problem that they are not at all rational.

Your assumption is that they are not similar to children or the mentally ill.

It is obvious that they are.

JM

[Tupac Shakur]

The problem is that they're taking a drug that kills them, not that they're irrational. Legalize safely made drugs so that they can use them instead. Problem solved.

[Elok]

Because they are addicts, they are not rational at all.

You mean they're previously addicted to opiates and turn to Krokodil because good stuff is out of their league?

[Berzerker]

I am actually pretty sure there is 100% correlation between 'drug addicted mom' and 'neglected/abused children'.

JM

You'd be using a meaningless definition of neglect to support that accusation

[Jon Miller]

We regulate what children can and can't do, what they can sell.

We regulate what mentally ill can and can't do, what they can sell.

I shouldn't need to give an example of why this is right, but I can if need be.

We do this because they are not rational, are not in control and do not understand.

The same is true of addicts.

Now obviously, for all three groups, there is a gradient. Society draws a line, which is somewhat 'arbitrary'.

One line for children is 18, but there are actually lines at younger ages in the US.

The same should be true for mentally ill and addicts.

Maintaining that this shouldn't be the case is crazy.

Not saying that we should take restrict what sex addicts/caffeine (pot) addicts can do. Not saying that we should restrict what bi-polar people can do. This is based on where I think the line should be drawn. Not because all addicts/mentally ill/children are rational and capable of making choices about their body/what they buy/sell.

JM

[Jon Miller]

You'd be using a meaningless definition of neglect to support that accusation

I meant to say crack.

JM

[Berzerker]

The problem is that they're taking a drug that kills them, not that they're irrational. Legalize safely made drugs so that they can use them instead. Problem solved.

but that would be rational and the drug war is not or its supporters would be pointing to the incredible success they've had at reducing consumption

[Tupac Shakur]

No offense, but your argument is incredibly stupid, JM.

[Jon Miller]

The problem is that they're taking a drug that kills them, not that they're irrational. Legalize safely made drugs so that they can use them instead. Problem solved.

You and KH are maintaining that it is terrible that they are constrained from doing what they want with their body/what they buy and sell.

Obviously (at some point in the spectrum), mentally ill/children should be constrained from doing what they want with their body/what they buy and sell. This is because of their capability.

Obviously people who use krokadil (a subset of those addicted to opiates) are not capable, and should be constrained.

It doesn't matter whether they are given heroin or take heroin by selling their kidneys or take krokadil.

JM

[Jon Miller]

No offense, but your argument is incredibly stupid, JM.

You are claiming that someone is capable of making their own choices when they choose to take something that causes their flesh to fall of their body and changes their life expectancy to 2-3 years.

I don't see how I am the incredibly stupid one here.

It is like claiming that I should be able to go around to pre-schools with a contract to exchange all future income for daily cookies and a new video game every week.

JM

[Tupac Shakur]

You and KH are maintaining that it is terrible that they are constrained from doing what they want with their body/what they buy and sell.

No, I'm saying that the result of trying to stop them (in vain) from doing what they want with their body is that they're killing themselves. KH listed other consequences of drug criminalization that are far worse than the problem of drug use. I'm making a purely utilitarian argument for why drug legalization is obviously preferable to the status quo.

You are claiming that someone is capable of making their own choices when they choose to take something that causes their flesh to fall of their body and changes their life expectancy to 2-3 years.

I've claimed no such thing. You either need to learn to read or (more likely) stop falling back on irrelevancies when confronted with basic logical arguments that doesn't support your preferred outcomes.

[Elok]

You mean they're previously addicted to opiates and turn to Krokodil because good stuff is out of their league?

Sorry, but I really would like this answered. Is the general trend that people become addicted to honest-to-Satan legitimate opiates, can't afford the real thing, and then turn to the ghoulish homemade crap? Because if you're arguing that they're using it because they're addicted to it because they just started using krokodil one day, that's not really an answer. It'd also be nice if we had some kind of report or study to back this up; it's no good arguing about what do do with drug users, or evaluating their mental state, if you don't understand why they use the drugs in the first place.

[Jon Miller]

Didn't say that I would be in favor of subsidized heroin? (and would consider heroin legalization)

JM