How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[Asher]

Then why in psychology today do the parents say they are just as patriotic as christians?

Because in America, being "unpatriotic" means you're a secular commie who should be put to death.

[Aeson]

There's a confounding variable at work here, though: you grew up in a fiercely nationalistic (and xenophobic) place and time. As a result, you experienced what is a trifling nuisance to most people of my generation as an affirmation of values that were already instilled in you. You assume that background as a default; I will concede that such a background would produce such an effect, but maintain that it would produce such an effect if the pledge were never said, or if it were replaced with an entirely different ritual that had no nationalistic connotations. Lacking such a background, all the kids at all the schools I ever went to did the same thing you did with no observable effect--and yes, you acknowledge this would be the case, but if it only works in a given emotional background (which is the case), and the given emotional background would produce the same results without the pledge (which, I feel pretty confident, is also the case), why should the pledge be assigned any importance? It's simply an accessory.

Sure, there were other influences. But the pledge has more effect than you give it credit for. There would be no vehicle without the pledge (or anthem which is a similar thing) for me to feel that unity with the other students while proclaiming our patriotism. There would not be a constant daily reminder of "America = freedom" being pounded into the mind. It's not like we went out at recess and had formal rituals to display our patriotism on our free time. (At times we might have shot Commies or Russians or Russian Commies... but more often than not it was Indians.)

That is the point of the pledge. It's why it was put in the schools in the first place. To instill a community spirit and patriotism in kids. And believe it or not, it did influence people. Maybe it no longer has that effect...

Affirmations may well have done marvelous things for you in the hospitals--but you wanted to believe in them, or so I assume.

No, I didn't want to believe any of it. I was suicidal at the time and kept alive against my wishes. Medicated to the point where I was someone else, and then medicated again to treat that until I was something else again. Treated with ECT to the point I was nobody (for a short while). But I can see how some of the things implanted in my psyche at the time were very helpful towards overcoming my problems later on. Even at a point in my life where I didn't remember it having happened at all (after ECT).

You were not made to do them against your will by an authority for no clear reason, they were given to you as a means to heal yourself, and you did what you were told voluntarily. You said these things more than once a day. And when you said whatever you said, most crucially, you wanted to believe the things you were saying. No?

There is a level of authority in a mental hospital that is much like that in prison. You do what you are told if you want to get out. Unlike prison, you won't just get out at a set time (if you never get paroled), you can be held indefinitely. Also if you aren't cooperative you might just be medicated until you are. I was very passive at the time so it wasn't any trouble for me to just go along with it. My plan was to get out and finish it. It didn't happen that way, largely because of the affirmations I just did unthinkingly. Just as the first time my plan wasn't even a plan at all, I never actually decided to do it, it was just something I'd go over in my mind as a comfort until it just happened.

I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by "symbolic meanings," I said the meaning completely eludes the students. Suggest we drop that whole line of argument.

You're the one who brought it up, I was trying to figure out what you meant:

"Certainly not ones native to the pledge itself, as opposed to the symbolic value it's assigned, or the teacher's harangue about it."

[giblets]

Little known fact: the original Pledge of Allegiance required the hands to be in a...slightly different position than we see now.

Hitler co-opted it when he adopted the practice in Nazi Germany.


(1899)





And no, this is not a troll or joke. I doubt most Americans know that. Suddenly once you add the hand motions, I bet most of you would see why it's creepy.

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side. Then, still standing, as the instruments strike a chord, all will sing AMERICA- "My Country, tis of Thee."

Source: The Youth's Companion, 65 (1892): 446-447

OMG, Hitler was a vegetarian! People who don't eat meat are creepy!

[Asher]

OMG, Hitler was a vegetarian! People who don't eat meat are creepy!

Do you find videos of children in Nazi Germany doing the Nazi Salute and saying "Heil Hitler" creepy? Yes or no.

If you say no, you are a liar or have a ****ed up moral compass.
If you say yes, then you must recognize that it's no different for American children to say the Pledge.

[DinoDoc]

Sure, I will.

Ben, the case your post quoted and I made plain to you by telling which case it was a) handed down in 1943 b) held that schools lack the authority to make **** mandatory wrt the pledge. Which isn't to say that school officials may not encourage students to show respect for our country, however they may not require mandatory displays of patriotism. Students have the constitutional right to remain seated and silently respectful during the Pledge of Allegiance, and cannot be otherwise compelled to salute the flag. Students who choose not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance may do so without parental consent. Formal discipline, including detentions and suspensions, cannot be imposed for non-participation, nor can other types of non-disciplinary penalties such as reducing grades, requiring transfers to different classrooms, or withholding letters of recommendations.

[giblets]

Do you find videos of children in Nazi Germany doing the Nazi Salute and saying "Heil Hitler" creepy? Yes or no.

If you say no, you are a liar or have a ****ed up moral compass.
If you say yes, then you must recognize that it's no different for American children to say the Pledge.

It is different. Hitler wasn't a country, he was a dictator. God you're stupid.

[Asher]

It is different. Hitler wasn't a country, he was a dictator. God you're stupid.

So if they said "Heil Deutschland" it wouldn't be creepy at all?

[Kidlicious]

Because in America, being "unpatriotic" means you're a secular commie who should be put to death.

Elok, he's debating nicely now. Take him off ignore. NOT!

[Asher]

Ben, the case your post quoted and I made plain to you by telling which case it was a) handed down in 1943 b) held that schools lack the authority to make **** mandatory wrt the pledge. Which isn't to say that school officials may not encourage students to show respect for our country, however they may not require mandatory displays of patriotism. Students have the constitutional right to remain seated and silently respectful during the Pledge of Allegiance, and cannot be otherwise compelled to salute the flag. Students who choose not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance may do so without parental consent. Formal discipline, including detentions and suspensions, cannot be imposed for non-participation, nor can other types of non-disciplinary penalties such as reducing grades, requiring transfers to different classrooms, or withholding letters of recommendations.

If this were true, states wouldn't be passing laws that directly contradict it.

[giblets]

So if they said "Heil Deutschland" it wouldn't be creepy at all?

Not really.

[Asher]

Elok, he's debating nicely now. Take him off ignore. NOT!

What is this, the 90s?

I'm serious. Try going to the media and making your case and say "oh, and by the way, I am NOT patriotic". See how that goes for you.

[Asher]

Not really.

All this thread proves is Americans have a demonstrably lower tolerance for creepiness...

Which I suppose is no surprise, really.

[giblets]

All this thread proves is Americans have a demonstrably lower tolerance for creepiness...

If we have a lower tolerance why aren't we the ones throwing a hissy fit over a pledge?

[giblets]

Asher, your avatar is slightly creepy.

[Asher]

If we have a lower tolerance why aren't we the ones throwing a hissy fit over a pledge?

Err. This is stupid on two counts:
1) You have a lower tolerance for creepiness, which means you don't have an issue with the pledge
2) You do have hissy fits over the pledge. Search the forum archives, and look at how often the Pledge has been in the news since 2000. It's a lot.