How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[Aeson]

To what extent do you think a five-year-old understands the words "pledge," "allegiance" "republic," "nation," "indivisible," and "liberty"?

It's worse because they don't understand it.

There's a reason why people grow up speaking the language(s) they are exposed to as young children. It's not because of an inborn understanding of the words. They are taught correlations between words and meanings or other words by what they are exposed to. Repetition of these correlations is a method of teaching.

The actual repetition is also a way of breeding conformity. Whether you think it's a good effect or not, these types of rote recitals can have quite a profound effect on a child's mind.

[Elok]

Elok, you need to do some basic research into developmental psychology before continuing this discussion.

The point of repetition is to embed into the subconscious. They may not fully understand what it means at the time, but it's proven to significantly impact the thought process and belief system of people as they age. This is precisely why a child is far more likely to be religious if their parent is...

Stuff like the Pledge plant a seed of fervent nationalism ("patriotism") in Americans that lead to their arrogance and overconfidence in their own country and belief system.

I've already read plenty of DevPsych--my mother is a psych professor, she's run me through the basics enough times that I know you're talking out your arse. There are various theories dealing with how a child's mind develops, but none say that rote repetition of what is, in effect, a set of meaningless phrases, once a day for roughly thirty seconds, will have a meaningful impact on a child's life or thought processes. You're spouting nonsense, and being patronizing to boot.

I might add that most popular ideas about "the subconscious" are rubbish. In fact, what you're referring to is not "the subconscious" at all, but the UNconscious. It can have an effect on our behavior, but a lasting effect requires a powerful or continual stimulus--and a fragment of a minute spent reciting whatever is a pathetic stimulus compared to a whole school day's worth of interaction with peers and teachers.

As to why a child is "far more likely to be religious," which is more likely:

A. I am religious because my mother took me to church every Sunday, taught me to pray every night before sleeping, told me lots of stories about God and the Bible, had us pray before every family meal, and basically soaked our life with religion.
B. I recited the Lord's Prayer before I knew what any of the archaic diction meant, and NOW IT'S IN MY BRAIN AND I CAN'T GET IT OUT! I'M A POD, er, GOD PERSON! MUST...FORGIVE...TRESPASSES! WHATEVER...THOSE...ARE!

Any effect that recitation of the meaningless has will be slight, and insignificant compared to effects of the surrounding culture. To look at a fiercely patriotic child and claim the Pledge is responsible is akin to looking at a body full of buckshot and blaming "lead poisoning." Any chemical effect the lead had on the tissues is negligible compared to the effect of the explosive force that rammed the lead in there in the first damned place.

[Aeson]

"The pledge is one of many things that instill a sense of patriotism. It is not the only thing." - Asher

[Kidlicious]

People who read the Bible a lot tend to become christians? That's brain washing!

[Elok]

"The machines have these devices that soak up human body heat and use it for power. Oh, and also they have a form of fusion, but we totally expect you to believe the tepid warmth of a human body is the real deal and not the pathetic, insignificant excuse for a power source any rational person would expect it to be." -Morpheus

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[Aeson]

He didn't say what form of fusion they had... maybe it was like our cold fusion and thus pretty useless

[Elok]

It had to be doing some pretty heavy lifting, if it let a human being release more energy than s/he took in.

[DaShi]

Yes, let's nitpick the physics of the Matrix to make a point.

[Elok]

It was the first example that came to mind of something obviously inadequate being credited for an effect where much more plausible explanations exist. If you wish, substitute "Positive thinking totally lets you beat cancer! Well, that, and state-of-the-art modern medicine. But really, we should be crediting the positive thinking the most."

[Elok]

But even that isn't an apt comparison, because positive thinking might theoretically do something meaningful that the drugs couldn't. Not a lot, but something. My Matrix example was better because the ostensible big guns plainly wouldn't even work at all. If somebody wants to help me out with a better analogy, feel free.

[Aeson]

Neither Asher or I have said that the pledge has a huge effect on a person's psyche. We disagree about the extent of the effect, and probably by not too much. You seem to want to discount it almost completely. I think you discount it too much.

The analogies you are finding for this discrepancy are ridiculous. It'd be like me firing back about how you don't think death squad recruitment of children in Africa has any effect on their psyche.

[Elok]

I will allow that the pledge can instill patriotism insofar as, in some parts of the country, a dissenting child's peers are likely to speculate on whether he is a "******" who requires a beating. But in this case, the pledge is merely a symbolic act, an external proof--an extension of the surrounding culture. It would have the same effect if we required children to do the hokey-pokey.

(And yes, to be consistent I really should continue capitalizing Pledge like I used to, but I'm getting lazy).

[Aeson]

My Matrix example was better because the ostensible big guns plainly wouldn't even work at all.

Your analysis of the efficiency of the human body (and fuel) seems to be based on a misconception. No engine or chemical process can produce more energy than it consumes. What it can do is convert the energy stored in a fuel into work of some sort. What the machines were using for fuel in the Matrix isn't gone into in great depth so it would be very difficult to judge how efficient and (how long it could output energy for) a process it would be.

[Elok]

Neither Asher or I have said that the pledge has a huge effect on a person's psyche. We disagree about the extent of the effect, and probably by not too much. You seem to want to discount it almost completely. I think you discount it too much.

I discount it completely because whatever effect it might have--and I don't think that's much, honestly--is likely to be a hiccup against the background of the child's life as a whole. Suppose that it takes thirty seconds to say the pledge. That's 1/120th of an hour. With seven hours in a school day, that makes 1/840th of the school day devoted to "indoctrination." During this indoctrination, the students will be reciting by rote something they learned years ago, while their minds are occupied by anything and everything else. Do you think this will have any effect worth discussing when you compare it with the child's upbringing, conversations with peers, attitudes received from media, or actual lessons in school? I mean, hell, if you want to complain about indoctrination, look at civics or history class. You might find plenty of it there.

[Aeson]

I will allow that the pledge can instill patriotism insofar as, in some parts of the country, a dissenting child's peers are likely to speculate on whether he is a "******" who requires a beating. But in this case, the pledge is merely a symbolic act, an external proof--an extension of the surrounding culture. It would have the same effect if we required children to do the hokey-pokey.

So are you claiming that there are no psychological effects on children when having a group of peers recite something by rote every day?

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