Canadian Hate Laws on Trial

[Hauldren Collider]

Oh god, BK's poisoned the thread. Abort. Abort. Abandon ship.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you completely retarded? From the article I just linked

Where does that article actually prove your statement that heterosexual men are just as likely as homosexual men to be child abusers?

It never actually addresses (or even argues this). It just cites about 20 studies showing the opposite and argues why those studies are flawed.

So what's the answer to the question, Kentonio? Why don't we see 10x as many girls molested as boys?

[Ben Kenobi]

If Whatcott's hate mongering lead to one vulnerable or unbalanced person being convinced that homosexuals were predatory paedolphiles

Complete rubbish. No one can be held responsible for how other people interpret their words.

By this argument, John Lennon would have been held responsible for Helter Skelter, and Charles Manson.

then he is morally responsible for that death

Not in any sane court of law.

That's why I mentioned Dr Tiller, the Operation Rescue people are responsible for his murder, and under US law they get to walk away scot free.

How are the Operation Rescue people responsible? They were not involved in any way. If they were responsible, why is it that the shooter (who actually pulled the trigger), wasn't part of Operation Rescue?

[Elok]

If people are in an emotionally vulnerable state they can be manipulated to commit quite horrific acts with frightening ease. Although Milgram had people in a test environment, the nazis had already proved that this is also perfectly valid in the field in a huge range of situations and conditions. If Whatcott's hate mongering lead to one vulnerable or unbalanced person being convinced that homosexuals were predatory paedolphiles and that the logical response was to kill them, then he is morally responsible for that death no matter how much he then whined about it never being his intention. That's why I mentioned Dr Tiller, the Operation Rescue people are responsible for his murder, and under US law they get to walk away scot free.

There are a rather large number of problems with this:

1. Milgram gave clear, insistent orders, he didn't remark vaguely that the man in the next room with a heart condition was not a nice person anyway.
2. Most of the atrocities in Nazi Germany happened in a similarly organized fashion, in camps specially designed for murder. Clear orders were given.
3. Nazi Germany was an entirely different place from 21st century Canada. It's implausible to assert that people will react the same way under drastically different circumstances.
4. What "emotionally vulnerable state"? The state of being a dumbass? The state of being drunk? The state of being mentally ill and not restrained? None of those are a hateful speaker's fault.
5. You really should at least try to prove that Whatcott had some intention of getting homosexuals beaten or killed.
6. Not to mention proving that he inserted even the vaguest insinuation of such in his text. I'll settle for "will no one rid me of this meddlesome homo?"
7. The hate speech laws are not contingent on anyone doing anything at all. All the ***-bashing teenagers may very well have been busy playing video games, or smoking meth, or holding a marathon competition to see who could jerk off the most times in 24 hours, or whatever such teenagers do for fun. You're talking about penalizing someone for purely hypothetical consequences.

I can't comment on the murder of Dr. Tiller, since I know almost nothing of it. Did this Operation Rescue plan to incite whoever did it to murder? Do we have record of them ordering it in a reasonably clear way?

[Elok]

Oh god, BK's poisoned the thread. Abort. Abort. Abandon ship.

BK's posts are Asher's fault. He plainly wanted to incite a long, tedious argument full of dubious claims and strawmen; given past precedent, that was guaranteed to happen.

[giblets]

If people are in an emotionally vulnerable state they can be manipulated to commit quite horrific acts with frightening ease. Although Milgram had people in a test environment, the nazis had already proved that this is also perfectly valid in the field in a huge range of situations and conditions. If Whatcott's hate mongering lead to one vulnerable or unbalanced person being convinced that homosexuals were predatory paedolphiles and that the logical response was to kill them, then he is morally responsible for that death no matter how much he then whined about it never being his intention. That's why I mentioned Dr Tiller, the Operation Rescue people are responsible for his murder, and under US law they get to walk away scot free.

So we need the government to regulate all forms of speech in order to mold public opinion into the correct shape because people are too stupid to think for themselves? Seriously?

[giblets]

Oh god, BK's poisoned the thread. Abort. Abort. Abandon ship.

With BK on your side you're sure to lose the argument.

[kentonio]

Where does that article actually prove your statement that heterosexual men are just as likely as homosexual men to be child abusers?

It never actually addresses (or even argues this). It just cites about 20 studies showing the opposite and argues why those studies are flawed.

So what's the answer to the question, Kentonio? Why don't we see 10x as many girls molested as boys?

How about the actual conclusion to the argument you tool!

Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

How are the Operation Rescue people responsible? They were not involved in any way. If they were responsible, why is it that the shooter (who actually pulled the trigger), wasn't part of Operation Rescue?

You mean like how the murderer was found with an Operation Rescue note in his car?

Roeder apparently kept track of the state prosecution against Tiller through a senior member of Operation Rescue, the anti-abortion organization.

At the time of Roeder’s arrest Sunday afternoon along Interstate 35 in Johnson County, a television station captured the vehicle on video. There on the dashboard was a note that read “Cheryl” and “Op Rescue” with a phone number.

Cheryl Sullenger, senior policy adviser for Operation Rescue out of Wichita, said Tuesday that she has spoken to Roeder in the past, but she said he would initiate the contact. She said she hasn’t had any recent contact with him.

Sullenger served about two years in prison after pleading guilty to conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic in California in 1988. She has since renounced violent action.

[Krill]

There are a rather large number of problems with this:

1. Milgram gave clear, insistent orders, he didn't remark vaguely that the man in the next room with a heart condition was not a nice person anyway.
2. Most of the atrocities in Nazi Germany happened in a similarly organized fashion, in camps specially designed for murder. Clear orders were given.
3. Nazi Germany was an entirely different place from 21st century Canada. It's implausible to assert that people will react the same way under drastically different circumstances.
4. What "emotionally vulnerable state"? The state of being a dumbass? The state of being drunk? The state of being mentally ill and not restrained? None of those are a hateful speaker's fault.
5. You really should at least try to prove that Whatcott had some intention of getting homosexuals beaten or killed.
6. Not to mention proving that he inserted even the vaguest insinuation of such in his text. I'll settle for "will no one rid me of this meddlesome homo?"
7. The hate speech laws are not contingent on anyone doing anything at all. All the ***-bashing teenagers may very well have been busy playing video games, or smoking meth, or holding a marathon competition to see who could jerk off the most times in 24 hours, or whatever such teenagers do for fun. You're talking about penalizing someone for purely hypothetical consequences.

I can't comment on the murder of Dr. Tiller, since I know almost nothing of it. Did this Operation Rescue plan to incite whoever did it to murder? Do we have record of them ordering it in a reasonably clear way?

Elok, that's a pretty crap troll. You point three is specifically what the Milgram experiment proves to be false. People will follow the orders of someone that appears to be in charge.

[Krill]

Also, people, please stop ****ing quoting BK.

[kentonio]

There are a rather large number of problems with this:

1. Milgram gave clear, insistent orders, he didn't remark vaguely that the man in the next room with a heart condition was not a nice person anyway.

Milgram was proving a theory, there have been countless examples in the real world of low level hatred and intolerance leading to violence.

2. Most of the atrocities in Nazi Germany happened in a similarly organized fashion, in camps specially designed for murder. Clear orders were given.

Sorry that's simply not true. There were thousands of atrocities commited across Germany and the occupied territories that had nothing to do with the camps. Often they were the result of orders given because there was a strong mechanism in place to enforce those orders, but there are many, many examples of people who just took it on themselves to kill, torture and oppress.

3. Nazi Germany was an entirely different place from 21st century Canada. It's implausible to assert that people will react the same way under drastically different circumstances.

Not at all. Milgram showed that it was humans who were prone to that behavior, not just Germans/nazis/people in the 30/40's etc. We don't get off that easily.

4. What "emotionally vulnerable state"? The state of being a dumbass? The state of being drunk? The state of being mentally ill and not restrained? None of those are a hateful speaker's fault.

How about a former victim of child abuse? A parent of a child who's just been found to have been abused? Vulnerable can mean a lot of things.

5. You really should at least try to prove that Whatcott had some intention of getting homosexuals beaten or killed.
6. Not to mention proving that he inserted even the vaguest insinuation of such in his text. I'll settle for "will no one rid me of this meddlesome homo?"

Someone making claims that people of a certain sexual orientation are child molesters is a clear incitement.

So we need the government to regulate all forms of speech in order to mold public opinion into the correct shape because people are too stupid to think for themselves? Seriously?

It's not about government control, its about a civilized society requiring some level of civilization from its members.

[Hauldren Collider]

With BK on your side you're sure to lose the argument.

If he were in the army he'd shoot everyone in his squad in the back while trying to hit the enemy.

[kentonio]

If he were in the army he'd shoot everyone in his squad in the back while trying to hit the enemy.

Or more likely he'd shoot everyone in the back, claim he had never owned a gun before, claim he had never even been in the army, claim that the people he shot were all muslims anyway and then accuse his accusers of just picking on him because he was catholic.

[Hauldren Collider]

I stand corrected.

[Elok]

I'm too lazy to quote and continue this argument in full, honestly. Maybe I'll get my enthusiasm back later.