Rapture Question

[kentonio]

Wouldn't that have been a time when wine and beer were far safer drinks than questionable water supplies?

[Ben Kenobi]

By "saints," I assume BK refers to saints in the current RC/OC sense, dead men and women of extraordinary piety who are held up as examples of sanctity for the faithful. When I said "everybody's going to be staying here," I meant all the living, and I thought that was obvious in context.

Yep. Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. My bad.

[Ben Kenobi]

(Once more, I understand and encourage those who think that drinking alcohol is a temptation that they don't want to have.)

Drinking in moderation isn't a sin. Neither is choosing not to drink. As Paul says, "blessed is he who is not condemned by what he approves."

[Kidlicious]

Drinking in moderation isn't a sin. Neither is choosing not to drink. As Paul says, "blessed is he who is not condemned by what he approves."

I take that to mean that you should be very carefull about not approving of your own sins.

[Ben Kenobi]

I take that to mean that you should be very carefull about not approving of your own sins.

Yep! Just that in this case, I was referring to it not being a sin to decline to drink at all. You can't be condemned for choosing not to engage in activity that might get you in trouble.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I should mention that, while I read Revelation as a teenager for all the cool bits about giant agony-locusts, the OC has a somewhat uncomfortable relationship with the book--it's the ONLY book in the Bible we don't read from in any way during services. The general fear is that unguided exposure to the book would lead people to come up with all sorts of wackadoo theories. Anyway, I'm not terribly well-versed in Revelation, just letting you know.

Remember that Luther when going through the Bible initially wanted to cast Revelation out entirely as being most definitely not inspired by God and not useful for teaching. It became more a part of his New Testament Apocrypha (along with James and Jude, IIRC). Though unlike his Old Testament Apocrypha, hasn't been taken out of Protestant Bibles.

Though a lot of denominations are far unlike Luther's theology these days.

[molly bloom]

Wouldn't that have been a time when wine and beer were far safer drinks than questionable water supplies?

Well, quite. Not only healthier than possibly contaminated water supplies, but consider- the Jews have a feast day when you are obliged to be inebriated. Let's not forget, Jesus was a Jew, and the early Christians were nothing more than yet another Jewish sect.

Wine and intoxicating beverages are a fascinating subject when viewed from the Torah's perspective. On one hand, we use wine for kiddush and havdallah on Shabbat and Jewish holidays, and many, many mitzvot are accompanied by a cup of wine. Blessings are recited on a cup of wine beneath the chupah (wedding canopy), at a circumcision, at a Pidyon Haben (the "Redemption of a Firstborn Son"), and let's not forget the four cups of wine we drink at the Passover seder.

In the Scriptures, wine is described as "bringing joy to G‑d and man" (Judges 9:13). And, indeed, every sacrifice offered in the Holy Temple was accompanied by a wine libation. Because wine is considered to be the "king of beverages" the rabbis coined a special blessing to be recited exclusively on wine: the Hagafen blessing.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/581082/jewish/What-is-Judaisms-take-on-alcohol-consumption.htm

[Felch]

Remember that Luther when going through the Bible initially wanted to cast Revelation out entirely as being most definitely not inspired by God and not useful for teaching. It became more a part of his New Testament Apocrypha (along with James and Jude, IIRC). Though unlike his Old Testament Apocrypha, hasn't been taken out of Protestant Bibles.

Though a lot of denominations are far unlike Luther's theology these days.

So Protestants just pick and choose the books they want to have in their Bible? How do they make this determination, given that they're supposed to derive their understanding of the faith only from the texts?

Orthodoxy and Catholicism at least have Apostolic authority to decide this sort of thing. Protestants just seem to be confused.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Luther engaged in the first example of historical critical method, basically . He claimed they were not authentic due to the style of their writing. The Old Testament Apocypha were the books of the Old Testament not written in Hebrew.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

Luther himself took the liberty of criticizing some of these books in a polemical manner which few Lutherans today would find completely acceptable. He had a low view of Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Revelation, and so when he published his New Testament in 1522 he placed these books apart at the end. In his Preface to Hebrews, which comes first in the series, he says, "Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation."

Luther's criticism of these books will perhaps be found disgraceful and even shocking to modern Christians, but it should be pointed out that his attitude was not so shocking in the context of the late Middle Ages. Erasmus had also called into question these four books in the Annotationes to his 1516 Greek New Testament, and their canonicity was doubted by the Roman Catholic Cardinal Cajetan (Luther's opponent at Augsburg. See Reu, Luther's German Bible, pp. 175-176).

[Kidlicious]

We don't call Luther a protestant. We call him a liberal.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Who is "we"?

[Kidlicious]

Who is "we"?

I was saying that he wasn't a protestant in jest, but I'm not a big fan.