Rudy Giuliani Blames Americans for 9/11

[Barnabas]

America should not make decisions to please the other 6 billion people that are not Americans. America needs to make the decisions that are most beneficial to the people that they are responsible to, the citizens of the United States.

This is like asking a business if their primary concern is to society in general or to their stockholders. A business best serves society through the returns that they provide their stockholders, and America best serves the interests of the world by serving their own people first.

America doesn't have the choice as to who they fight. It was not America who provoked the plane flying into the World Trade Centre. Why do you think they targetted this? Yes, a significant fraction of the world's population hates America simply because they are not like them. Because they are free, because they are powerful. America has to stand up for herself as best as she can and unfortunately sometimes, that means going to war with people who attack and kill American civilians.

I am not one of those who believes that America's influence on the world has been negative. I think that if there ever comes a time when America is not filling the void of leadership, that the world will be a much more dangerous place. Many people who are not Americans have become accustomed to relying upon her to always be there. And yes, paradoxically, some of those people who are helped by America also hate her.

Perhaps I am an oddball, but this is how I feel. I feel that Americans are, by and large, good and honourable people. I am proud to say that many of my friends are American, they have brought many blessings into my life and continue to do so.

Ben, you are a Catholic right? You don't see internet pornography, the legalization of gay marriage and abortion, or tv shows such as Sex & the City as a part of America's influence in the rest of the world?

The USA has never needed to be attacked to attack some far away country (Iraq, Serbia, much of Central America) 9/11 was the first attack on American Soil since the war against the Japanese back in ww2

[Arrian]

Felch is talking sense here. Rudy is telling us sweet lies. Americans love that ****.

My old post in the old thread was not supposed to provide any cover for Guiliani's bull**** about "they hate us for our freedoms." It was intended as a sensible explanation that, while PR certainly matters, so do our national interests and our domestic politics. So, while it would be lovely to ignore the **** out of the ME, we simply cannot do that. Any involvement will make some enemies. And, while I'm no Likudite Israel is always right guy, they're a long-standing ally. We're not going to turn on them. We might - maybe, in some utopian future - put real pressure on them to change their settlement policy. Even if that happens and it works, there will be people who want to blow us up. Acknowledging that, however, does not justify throwing up your hands and saying "oh screw it, bomb the **** outta the whole area!"

The key is to make as few enemies as possible and to do our best to isolate the enemies we have. A simplistic example: Muslims (~1.5B) - not the enemy. A small number (~10k?) of radical Islamists willing to commit acts of violence - the enemy. The best policy drives a wedge between the two, rather than encouraging the larger group to support the tiny subset.

Call it enlightened self-interest, applied to foreign policy. Unfortunately, there is a significant chunk of our population that wants our foreign policy to be about waving our flag, beating our chests, and bombing people. **** them, because they're idiots.

-Arrian

edit: or, hell, I could have simply quoted the second post I made in the old thread:

The flip side to that very same coin is to remember that simply because a nut like Osama can't be appeased, it doesn't mean our FP shouldn't be examined.

Our FP has been a ****ed up mess as long as I can remember. It likely always will be, which to me means there will always be room for improvement. I'm all for a calm, cool, collected review of it and changes where appropriate.

I *do* think that terrorism directed at us has as one of its roots our FP. That right there is enough to get lots of people pretty angry at me.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, you are a Catholic right? You don't see internet pornography, the legalization of gay marriage and abortion, or tv shows such as Sex & the City as a part of America's influence in the rest of the world?

No, frankly, I don't. Gay marriage came to Canada before it came to America. Pornography is a, wait, what, moment for me. You aren't seriously arguing that pornography is a specific American affliction? Really? No, it's got nothing to do with America.

TV shows, better argument. Abortion, a better one. However:

1, America didn't take to Abortion as much as Europe has, and didn't adopt Roe until 1972. The Communists were pushing Abortion much, much earlier.
2, Television, is probably one of the few places where American influence has spread around the world. The question then becomes is it positive, or negative? Television is a tool, the shows push what they believe that people want to see, irrespective of what people actually do. There are some good shows out there, but the decline has more to do with the decline in everything over the last 40 years than anything specific to America.

The USA has never needed to be attacked to attack some far away country (Iraq, Serbia, much of Central America) 9/11 was the first attack on American Soil since the war against the Japanese back in ww2

True, but they also came to help their friends in Europe twice, and unlike the Soviet union, didn't occupy western Europe. I think that America has been far better than anyone else in the same position, with a close second being the UK.

[Ben Kenobi]

To follow BKs analogy I picture Uncle Sam ****ing Lady Liberty with the caption "How dare the Islamists defile her!"
btw - I think conservatives are ********.

So again, you're blaming the victims. Why am I not surprised to see progressives can't figure out who the victim is?

I don't have a problem with women, you do.

Your argument here is no different from someone who says that a woman dressed provocatively deserves to be raped.

[Egbert]

This is like asking a business if their primary concern is to society in general or to their stockholders. A business best serves society through the returns that they provide their stockholders, and America best serves the interests of the world by serving their own people first.

A business can improve returns to stockholders by cutting costs. For example, vast quantities of toxic waste can be disposed of cheaply by dumping them into the river. Umh, on second thoughts.

[DaShi]

Paul is right to think critically about how American policy shapes how we are perceived. Arrian is right in saying that we're pretty much stuck in the situation we're in. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from our mistakes. I'd rather have a president who thinks seriously about the consequences of his decisions than some witless cheerleader who just brags about America being great. America is still #1, but we're slipping, and the Republican attitude isn't doing us any favors. Santorum tore into Paul about this in the SC debate, and it pissed me off. Most Republican candidates would rather curry votes from imbeciles like DD than tell the hard truth.

Marry me!

[Ben Kenobi]

A business can improve returns to stockholders by cutting costs. For example, vast quantities of toxic waste can be disposed of cheaply by dumping them into the river. Umh, on second thoughts.

So you're suggesting that American foreign policy is detrimental to the well being of countries like Australia? That's an interesting perspective. Why would you think that?