A Bible question!!!!

[Ben Kenobi]

In a perfect world we would all be black-skinned, brown-eyed, straight guys* with all 1 wife each and a dozen of children.

Where did I say that, Robert? We get what God has given us. Hell, I'd settle just for being able to see straight and hear properly.

But this is not a perfect world, maybe you didn't notice, but something is wrong.

Yes, remember I believe in total depravity of mankind? I believe that man is a sinner and that he must strive to overcome his natural desires. Homosexuality is no different.

And among the billions of wrongs in the world that keep me awake, homosexuality is not included.

Good for you. Unfortunately for you Christ and Paul are concerned about the problems associated with sodomy. If Paul and Christ did not say what they did, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. You must know that I believed as you did, and not all that long ago. I can't change the bible to fit what the world thinks today. The bible is very clear. Sodomy is sinful.

It's not just the least of my worries, it is none of my worries. Except for gay kids who have difficulties to accept it or be accepted.

So you are concerned, just not about what Christ teaches. Why can't you admit this to yourself, that when the chips are down, you really don't give a damn about those words on a page written 2000 years ago when it gets in the way of what you want to believe instead?

The solution isn't to accept their sin, but to accept them as persons. A gay person isn't just gay, that's the point I'm trying to drive home to you. We don't have theive Christians or lying Christians, but we do have gay christians. We are telling them that they cannot repent. That is what you are doing here Robert, and that is going to destroy people ultimately. And worst of all, you are motivated by what you believe to be the right thing! Everyone must repent from their sins and that includes sodomy.

Except for kids who prostitute themselves to older men. But that's not much of a difference with straight kids. If I read your posts I sometimes get the idea that you have only one worry; homosexuality.

If people were arguing that other sins ought not to be considered sins then I would argue against them too. But on Apolyton, it's only homosexuality that really gets pushed as 'not a sin', which is why I post so much on it.

You should see my classes. When I have the agenda, the classes try to shove as much Christian teaching in the time that I do get. I spend one class on homosexuality. That's it. The rest of the classes are devoted to the sacraments, to Church history, etc. I feel the need to prepare my students for what they are going to face in the real world, and that means tackling homosexuality, but I do not devote more time to it than I feel it deserves.

I have a couple of friends who aren't able to get kids. Are you saying that they are sinning?

Sin requires an act of the will. You cannot commit sins without having the will involved. If you cannot have children even when trying your best to have them, then there is no fault. But you must try.

That they are missing the point in this life? That their marriage is worthless?

Absolutely no difference between a marriage where they are devoted to one another where they are fertile. It's not the result that is of primary importance but cleaving together of men and women with one another.

If I walk outside in the sun then my skin burns b/c I'm a white guy. I'm as a matter of fact happy to be a white guy. but it's not perfect.

I hate being a white guy becuase I turn into a lobster when I try to tan.

But that's the core teaching of the Bible, of Paul, Jesus, Luke, etc.:

Yes, and I believe that as well. Where we differ is that you believe that gay people need not repent because they are sinning, and I am saying that their sin is no different from anyone else, and that they must repent. If you're wrong then you've drawn people away from God, because they are still in their sins. If I'm wrong then as Paul says, "blessed is he who is not condemned by that which he desires". By abstaining God is not going to go and tell them that they have done wrong. Whereas if you are wrong, then yes, God will go and say look, you guys screwed up. And Robert, that's something you are going to have to work with the big guy in the sky, what you have taught to others about Christ.

This world is not perfect. It's not up to us to make it perfect because that's impossible.

We are not called to be successful. But we must try. There is no other option. We must try our damndest to leave the world a better place.

Read the entire old testament, it teaches you: this world isn't perfect, and even those who live most close to God (Moses, David) can't make it perfect or live perfect themselves. Even Israel who got this load of laws wasn't able to live perfect. Perfection is not possible.

Absolutely agree.

That's the message. And that's why you should not try to live perfect after all, but try to serve God and live in love with the others.

What does Christ say?

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

We must try, Robert. We absolutely must try our best. Even knowing we are going to fail.

[Kidlicious]

God made me a creature that lusts after other men's wives. Does that mean I'm justified in having sex with them? No, that's something different than not wearing something on my head when I pray. Becareful about teaching people to sin. There are se rd ious consequences.

[Kidlicious]

Oh amd.it is a.perfect world. It's a fallen world but it's perfect. That's why some people are gay. Deal with it and stop calling sin ok.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Some men are meant to be castrated?!

It a saying for people who choose not to have sex (or aren't interested in sex - asexuals or what have you).

[MikeH]

That's quite a different meaning IMO.

[MikeH]

copy it to the stupid sayings thread.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well Jesus was talking in Aramaic and then it was written down like 80 years after He said it into Greek. And then translated into English. So, you know, you have to make allowances here and there .