A Bible question!!!!

[Ben Kenobi]

last thing I would want is that gays get the idea that christianity is not for them. In christ there's no difference between man and woman, owner and slave, rich and poor, gay and straight. And yes, that last one has been added by me. But I am absolutely positive that back then they had no idea about the possibility to have a homosexual orientation. Sodomy was just a form of decadency among drunk men.

Christ cares very much for the sinner. I speak of sin only as the affliction for which we all suffer. It's not like pointing out, "sodomy is sinful", means that only those who engage in sodomy are sinful.

I'm a happy hetero and that it's none of my business to have a moral opinion on something that concerns others and touches the core of their being.

See, here's where you are wrong. Sin is sin. You cannot excuse someone for their homosexuality 'touching a core part of their being', and give a pass to fornication, lying, etc. We all have a sinful nature and are required to overcome the sins for which we are predisposed. No excuses.

it's not possible to translate biblical moral values to our day and age.

Robert, this is very distressing. Christ died for us, once and for all. His words transcend his time and are just as valid today as they were 2000 years ago, and as they will be 2000 years from now. This is extremely important for any Christian, that Christ transcends the spirit of the age.

This modern and present fascination with accepting homosexuality will pass. As will everything else. This I am certain. Our duty as Christians is to stand up and not deny Christ before men. That, is our only job here on earth.

But I am absolutely positive that back then they had no idea about the possibility to have a homosexual orientation.

Dubious. The Greek uses references to sodomite and catamite. The Apostles were very much aware of homosexuality and very clear that homosexuality is sinful, period. No exceptions.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Let's be fair... Jesus says nothing about gays .

We are discussing Old Testament statements and letters from Paul, both are subject to their own contexts. Old Testament laws had contextual applications (some that don't make any sense to us made perfect sense to Jews in that time period because they understood the references) and Paul was writing letters to specific churches with specific issues, a lot of which we don't necessarily know because we don't have the correspondance back and forth (it's like going on a Poly debate, going to page 8 and reading a length response to someone which includes no quotes and trying to extrapolate the entire argument from it... you don't know necessarily what is being addressed and not).

[MikeH]

Jesus hung around with 12 guys and never got married. It's pretty obvious I think.

[giblets]

Didn't he hang out with prostitutes too? Or was that someone else?

[Lorizael]

...irregardless...

That's the last straw. I am now recommending that you be banned forever.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus hung around with 12 guys and never got married. It's pretty obvious I think.

What, that he married Mary Magdalene and had kids?

[Ben Kenobi]

Let's be fair... Jesus says nothing about gays .

Except he *does* say that sex is to be restricted to a man and woman in marriage.

We are discussing Old Testament statements and letters from Paul, both are subject to their own contexts. Old Testament laws had contextual applications (some that don't make any sense to us made perfect sense to Jews in that time period because they understood the references) and Paul was writing letters to specific churches with specific issues, a lot of which we don't necessarily know because we don't have the correspondance back and forth (it's like going on a Poly debate, going to page 8 and reading a length response to someone which includes no quotes and trying to extrapolate the entire argument from it... you don't know necessarily what is being addressed and not).

Uh, he lists a whole bunch of sins and says 'don't do this'.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's the last straw. I am now recommending that you be banned forever.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Except he *does* say that sex is to be restricted to a man and woman in marriage.

In the context of divorce he says the man and women become one flesh and no man can/should tear them asunder. What does that have to do with sex?

Uh, he lists a whole bunch of sins and says 'don't do this'.

Yes, in his letters to those believers he says "don't do this" - the question is what exactly is he responding to and is his objection something specific in that case or something general? For example, women wearing head coverings while in church - obviously it refers to that specific church at that time as in that area an unhooded woman would cause a distraction (I picked this one rather than woman teaching in church because you are Catholic and I'm not getting into that debate here).

[Ben Kenobi]

In the context of divorce he says the man and women become one flesh and no man can/should tear them asunder. What does that have to do with sex?

The fact that he cites Genesis, where it says that "he made them male and female?" I totally see how that can be interpreted to say that men should marry each other.

Uh, he lists a whole bunch of sins and says 'don't do this'. Yes, in his letters to those believers he says "don't do this" - the question is what exactly is he responding to and is his objection something specific in that case or something general? For example, women wearing head coverings while in church - obviously it refers to that specific church at that time as in that area an unhooded woman would cause a distraction (I picked this one rather than woman teaching in church because you are Catholic and I'm not getting into that debate here).

And I'm saying that the list of stuff, do not lie, etc, you'd agree with wholeheartedly is a general list, *except* for sodomy. This is bad analysis.

[Robert]

The fact that he cites Genesis, where it says that "he made them male and female?" I totally see how that can be interpreted to say that men should marry each other.

argumentum ex silentio
I can say as well that the 'law' or 'rule' isn't included in the complete list of christian "don't do it" in Acts 15.

bottom line remains: it's a very delicate subject, it's impossible to apply teachings of 2000 years ago about morals to todays society.
It's about the core of ones being.
Why then continueing push this rule on people who aren't even christians?
It's a subject for gay christians. It's up to them to decide on how to live with it. And if they ask you for advise, then talk to them.

Not to mention of course that this is not the right time for christians, and catholics especially, to teach to the masses about sexual morals.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The fact that he cites Genesis, where it says that "he made them male and female?" I totally see how that can be interpreted to say that men should marry each other.

What Plomp said. Besides, making an argument from what His audience knows doesn't imply that everything else is not allowable.

And I'm saying that the list of stuff, do not lie, etc, you'd agree with wholeheartedly is a general list, *except* for sodomy. This is bad analysis.

I assume you are referring to 1 Corinthians 6? I'm also sure you know the controversy of the meaning of the Greek word "arsenokoitai", especially when the standard Greek word for homosexual was "paiderasste".

[Ben Kenobi]

argumentum ex silentio

"He made them male and female, and for that reason a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?"

How do you fit in "he made them male and male, etc?"

I want to hear this.

I can say as well that the 'law' or 'rule' isn't included in the complete list of christian "don't do it" in Acts 15.

Uh, we were talking about Paul, not Luke. Nice try.

How about 1 Cor 9-10

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

it's a very delicate subject, it's impossible to apply teachings of 2000 years ago about morals to todays society.

Bull****. You are perfectly willing to apply the teachings of Christ in other areas, not here. You carve out an exception.

It's about the core of ones being.

We all have sins to which we are predisposed. We are called to overcome them.

Why then continueing push this rule on people who aren't even christians?

You're a Christian now, Imran. So is Robert. I'm arguing with you and Robert as a Christian, or would you prefer me to treat you as an unbeliever?

It's a subject for gay christians.

As Paul says:

And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.

You are not 'gay' Christians. You are simply Christians. Are they 'lying' Christians? Are there 'theiving' Christians? Do we celebrate the sins that any other Christians have committed them and call them as such? No. So why the exception here.

It's up to them to decide on how to live with it. And if they ask you for advise, then talk to them.

Again, of that list, you would never arguing that lying is ok because what Paul said about it 2000 years ago no longer applies. Why not the rest?

Not to mention of course that this is not the right time for christians, and catholics especially, to teach to the masses about sexual morals

Right. Better that they sit and shut up about what God teaches.

[Ben Kenobi]

What Plomp said. Besides, making an argument from what His audience knows doesn't imply that everything else is not allowable.

Not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing he specifically says, male and female. "God made them male and female".

And I'm saying that the list of stuff, do not lie, etc, you'd agree with wholeheartedly is a general list, *except* for sodomy. This is bad analysis. I assume you are referring to 1 Corinthians 6? I'm also sure you know the controversy of the meaning of the Greek word "arsenokoitai", especially when the standard Greek word for homosexual was "paiderasste".

That's because arsenkotai - sodomite. Malakoi - Catamite. Catamite, sodomite. Catchers and pitchers.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Once again, in the context of divorce, responding to a question about divorce. And I think even the most woman hating gay man would acknowledge that God made woman as well as man .