A Bible question!!!!

[Ben Kenobi]

Once again, in the context of divorce, responding to a question about divorce. And I think even the most woman hating gay man would acknowledge that God made woman as well as man

So why did he make women at all? If men are supposed to be with other men, why are there women?

He made them male and female because men and women are supposed to be together.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I didn't realize that since he made women, all men are to be with them... does that mean the Pope is sinning? Some men are to be women, some are meant to be eunuchs, and some to be with other men as God has programmed their genetics to be.

The other fun with with arsenkotai is that during the time of Martin Luther it was "masturbator". Of course we can't have that these days.

[Ben Kenobi]

Nice evasion, Imran.

If men are supposed to be with other men, why do women exist at all?

Answer the question.

I didn't realize that since he made women, all men are to be with them... does that mean the Pope is sinning?

There's a difference between abstinence and engaging in sinful behaviour.

Some men are to be women, some are meant to be eunuchs, and some to be with other men as God has programmed their genetics to be.

That's not what he says.

For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it

Great misquote. How does Eunuch become 'homosexual' anyways? Anyways, if you believe that eunuchoi in Greek is homosexual, then you just proved yourself a liar.

The other fun with with arsenkotai is that during the time of Martin Luther it was "masturbator". Of course we can't have that these days.

So you sincerely believe that Christianity does not teach that homosexuality is sinful.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Thank you for showing me that the Pope is really the anti-Christ for not being with another woman!! Thank for you for anti-Catholic proofs .

Not an evasion at all. A logical end to your asinine point. If women were created so that men could "know" women, men who don't "know" women are engaging in sin, QED.

I never said that eunuchs and homosexuals are the same thing - thanks for your dumb strawman. I said there are different roles for each of us - some are hetero, some are homo, and some are eunuchs or not interested.

& I believe that Jesus teaches us overwhelming love. Christianity, the religion, teaches, in some instances, that homosexuality is sinful. That is lessening over time thanks to the grace of God who is attempting to reconcile his Creation and bringing the Kingdom to Earth.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not an evasion at all.

Still haven't answered the question. If men and men were supposed to be together, why did God create women?

A logical end to your asinine point.

Asinine as it may be, the question stands. Why is this Imran?

If women were created so that men could "know" women, men who don't "know" women are engaging in sin, QED.

Even if this were so, you can't get from here to saying that 'homosexuality is ok'.

I never said that eunuchs and homosexuals are the same thing

You misquoted Jesus, by saying that men who are born this way to love other men to do so. Jesus said that some Eunuchs, not homosexuals are born that way.

If you didn't claim that eunuchs are homosexuals, then you lied about what Jesus said.

I said there are different roles for each of us - some are hetero, some are homo, and some are eunuchs or not interested.

Unfortunately, that's not what Jesus said or taught. Jesus was referring to eunuchs. Some being born that way, some being castrated, and others choosing not to engage in sex at all.

Christianity, the religion, teaches, in some instances, that homosexuality is sinful.

In what instances does Christianity teach that homosexuality is not sinful?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oy, that's the last time I try to bring logical arguments to a discussion with you. You are incapable of understanding them. I should just go back to ignoring you.

Pax Christi

[Ben Kenobi]

that's the last time I try to bring logical arguments to a discussion with you. You are incapable of understanding them. I should just go back to ignoring you.

Pretty sad. You lied about what Christ said, and apparently don't feel sorry for it. Good job, Imran. I'll bet people are just lining up to convert.

[Kidlicious]

After going to catholic school for 8 years and reading it every day, I've had more than enough of all that crap to last a life time. Listening to the Nuns explaining what they thought it meant was quite irritating. Then listening to the wackos justifying their hatred and biases based on obscure or ambiguous excerpts was the last straw. Good men don't need a book to tell them what's right or wrong. Only bad men need it so they can pretend they're good.

Good people don't put others down who are doing a good work, and they don't proclaim to the world how good they are. Are you completely unfamiliar with the very important virtue called humility

[Kidlicious]

I never tell my gay brothers that God's made them to be with men. My interpretations of the Bible are very conservative so that I'm not led astray by the Evil One.

[Robert]

I didn't realize that since he made women, all men are to be with them... does that mean the Pope is sinning?

Hehe, nice find....
Indeed, if we follow Ben's way of reasoning then what about all those RC priests who left their parents house without having a wife?
Fortunately I do not follow that way of reasoning.

Regarding the different greek words regarding this subject.
it is often said that the original texts are not about '21th century married men' but about, what's the word in english, male hookers and their clients. It is well known that in the greek world of those days wealthy men often abused young boys, just as a way of entertainment. Plato, for example, is known for this habbit.

'catchers and pitchers', as Ben described it, may very well refer to this practice.
Once again, it's quiet a giant leap from that to post-modern gay marriage.
I do no not follow many of the laws from the Bible. I do not pray while standing and my heads in the air. My wife doesn't wear something on her head when she's praying. We do wear clothes where cotton and whool are mixed in. I eat meat with blood. Once again, laws are given in a certain time and context. The Bible is not a book filled with moral rules. It's a book that's a tool to bring us to Christ.
I'm quiet an orthodox guy. Don't be mistaken. I take the Bible quiet serious. I'd even say that I take it more serious then you do. You use it more like some form of an 'answer book'. You know, one that you open on a random page and then it says: "Go for it" or "Maybe later".

In Corinthians and in Romans Paul says that we're supposed to serve God, not by the letter, but by the Spirit. Because the letter kills while the Spirit makes alive.

[Robert]

And yes, Imram and me are christians. But we (or at least me) just can't see passively it how you continue to blacken the image of Christ towards non-christians. And because we (or at least me) can't accept how you hurt people in the core of their being in the name of Jesus.

[Robert]

Still haven't answered the question. If men and men were supposed to be together, why did God create women?

In a perfect world we would all be black-skinned, brown-eyed, straight guys* with all 1 wife each and a dozen of children.
But this is not a perfect world, maybe you didn't notice, but something is wrong. And among the billions of wrongs in the world that keep me awake, homosexuality is not included. It's not just the least of my worries, it is none of my worries. Except for gay kids who have difficulties to accept it or be accepted. Except for kids who prostitute themselves to older men. But that's not much of a difference with straight kids. If I read your posts I sometimes get the idea that you have only one worry; homosexuality.

I have a couple of friends who aren't able to get kids. Are you saying that they are sinning? That they are missing the point in this life? That their marriage is worthless? If I walk outside in the sun then my skin burns b/c I'm a white guy. I'm as a matter of fact happy to be a white guy. but it's not perfect.
But that's the core teaching of the Bible, of Paul, Jesus, Luke, etc.: This world is not perfect. It's not up to us to make it perfect because that's impossible. Read the entire old testament, it teaches you: this world isn't perfect, and even those who live most close to God (Moses, David) can't make it perfect or live perfect themselves. Even Israel who got this load of laws wasn't able to live perfect. Perfection is not possible. That's the message. And that's why you should not try to live perfect after all, but try to serve God and live in love with the others.

-----
*I'm only saying this b/c many dutch famous gays have said this. Many of them claimed that they would have prefered to be straight b/c of many reasons, while they are still very very happy to be gay now. /disclaimer

[Imran Siddiqui]

And yes, Imram and me are christians. But we (or at least me) just can't see passively it how you continue to blacken the image of Christ towards non-christians. And because we (or at least me) can't accept how you hurt people in the core of their being in the name of Jesus.

Amen!

But that's the core teaching of the Bible, of Paul, Jesus, Luke, etc.: This world is not perfect. It's not up to us to make it perfect because that's impossible. Read the entire old testament, it teaches you: this world isn't perfect, and even those who live most close to God (Moses, David) can't make it perfect or live perfect themselves. Even Israel who got this load of laws wasn't able to live perfect. Perfection is not possible. That's the message. And that's why you should not try to live perfect after all, but try to serve God and live in love with the others.

Amen a thousand times!

[MikeH]

some are meant to be eunuchs

Some men are meant to be castrated?!

[Ben Kenobi]

Indeed, if we follow Ben's way of reasoning then what about all those RC priests who left their parents house without having a wife?

What about it? You can't get from there to saying that men should be with men. Again, as Christ says, some choose not to engage in sex at all.

it is often said that the original texts are not about '21th century married men' but about, what's the word in english, male hookers and their clients. It is well known that in the greek world of those days wealthy men often abused young boys, just as a way of entertainment. Plato, for example, is known for this habbit.

Again, the two words, malakoi and arsenkotai are translated, by the KJV no less into "sodomite", and "catamite" which have very specific meanings. Pitchers and catchers, which in the Greek world of the time was significant because some said that pitching was not sinful but catching was. Paul doesn't have any of that.

The NIV renders both of these together as men who have sex with men.

'catchers and pitchers', as Ben described it, may very well refer to this practice.

No. Sorry. Do I need to get Boris in here to tell you what pitching and catching mean? Maybe 'top' and 'bottom' make more sense to you.

Once again, it's quiet a giant leap from that to post-modern gay marriage.

Really. So there are gay marriages that don't involve sodomy?

I do no not follow many of the laws from the Bible. I do not pray while standing and my heads in the air. My wife doesn't wear something on her head when she's praying. We do wear clothes where cotton and whool are mixed in. I eat meat with blood. Once again, laws are given in a certain time and context. The Bible is not a book filled with moral rules. It's a book that's a tool to bring us to Christ.

Ok, do you believe that decievers are sinful? Because I cannot see how you can handwave away sodomites and catamites as ok, while saying that decievers are not. Same list. If the bible truly is outdated, then you cannot say that lying is sinful.

I'm quiet an orthodox guy. Don't be mistaken. I take the Bible quiet serious. I'd even say that I take it more serious then you do.

No, you don't and I'll tell you why. I believe what Christ taught is transcendent and applies equally as well to today as it did 2000 years ago and equally well 2000 years. You do not. You see the bible as a historical account of what things were like 2000 years ago, but it isn't the primary authority in your life.

I do. If the bible says that it is wrong, the bible comes first, not European society of today. Not the zeitgeist if I need to be more specific. You hold the values of today higher and probably plenty of other people above Christ.

You use it more like some form of an 'answer book'. You know, one that you open on a random page and then it says: "Go for it" or "Maybe later".

You think I'm doing these citations at random? Robert, I've been down this road many times and many places. I teach from this book and have taught from it over the last yera. Nothing I cite is 'random' or 'open a page'. No, these are all arguments that I've formulated many times previous, and for the most part the only thing I have to change is the name to whom I'm addressing it to.

You think your arguments are 'unique'? No, they are not. They are all too distressingly common among Christians. I myself even held some of them at one time or another.

In Corinthians and in Romans Paul says that we're supposed to serve God, not by the letter, but by the Spirit. Because the letter kills while the Spirit makes alive.

So where do you think it is following the spirit of Christ to defy what he teaches about marriage, that marriage is between a man and a woman? Spirit? Nothing. You aren't even in the same ballpark as him.