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Social Security- a "ponzi scheme?"

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  • Social Security- a "ponzi scheme?"

    Texas governor Rick Perry is being criticized for calling Social Security a “Ponzi scheme.”* Even Mitt Romney is reportedly preparing to attack him for holding such a radical view.*But if anything, Perry was being too kind. *

    The original Ponzi scheme was the brainchild of Charles Ponzi. Starting in 1916, the poor but enterprising Italian immigrant convinced people to allow him to invest their money. However, Ponzi never actually made any investments. He simply took the money he was given by later investors and gave it to his early investors, providing those early investors with a handsome profit. He then used these satisfied early investors as advertisements to get more investors. Unfortunately, in order to keep paying previous investors, Ponzi had to continue finding more and more new investors. Eventually, he couldn’t expand the number of new investors fast enough, and the scheme collapsed. Ponzi was convicted of fraud and sent to prison.

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    Social Security, on the other hand, forces people to invest in it through a mandatory payroll tax. A small portion of that money is used to buy special-issue Treasury bonds that the government will eventually have to repay, but the vast majority of the money you pay in Social Security taxes is not invested in anything. Instead, the money you pay into the system is used to pay benefits to those “early investors” who are retired today. When you retire, you will have to rely on the next generation of workers behind you to pay the taxes that will finance your benefits.
    As with Ponzi’s scheme, this turns out to be a very good deal for those who got in early. The very first Social Security recipient, Ida Mae Fuller of Vermont, paid just $44 in Social Security taxes, but the long-lived Mrs. Fuller collected $20,993 in benefits. Such high returns were possible because there were many workers paying into the system and only a few retirees taking benefits out of it. In 1950, for instance, there were 16 workers supporting every retiree. Today, there are just over three. By around 2030, we will be down to just two.

    As with Ponzi’s scheme, when the number of new contributors dries up, it will become impossible to continue to pay the promised benefits. Those early windfall returns are long gone. When today’s young workers retire, they will receive returns far below what private investments could provide. Many will be lucky to break even.

    Eventually the pyramid crumbles.

    Of course, Social Security and Ponzi schemes are not perfectly analogous. Ponzi, after all, had to rely on what people were willing to voluntarily invest with him. Once he couldn’t convince enough new investors to join his scheme, it collapsed. Social Security, on the other hand, can rely on the power of the government to tax. As the shrinking number of workers paying into the system makes it harder to continue to sustain benefits, the government can just force young people to pay even more into the system.

    In fact, Social Security taxes have been raised some 40 times since the program began. The initial Social Security tax was 2 percent (split between the employer and employee), capped at $3,000 of earnings. That made for a maximum tax of $60. Today, the tax is 12.4 percent, capped at $106,800, for a maximum tax of $13,234. Even adjusting for inflation, that represents more than an 800 percent increase.

    In addition, at least until the final collapse of his scheme, Ponzi was more or less obligated to pay his early investors what he promised them. With Social Security, on the other hand, Congress is always able to change or cut those benefits in order to keep the scheme going.

    Social Security is facing more than $20 trillion in unfunded future liabilities. Raising taxes and cutting benefits enough to keep the program limping along will obviously mean an ever-worsening deal for younger workers. They will be forced to pay more and get less.

    Rick Perry got this one right.

    —- Michael Tanner is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and author of Leviathan on the Right: How Big-Government Conservatism Brought Down the Republican Revolution.
    "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

  • #2


    Social Security is Social Security. Everyone knows how it works. The whole argument about whether to put it in the Ponzi scheme bucket is just a question of "should we attach positive or negative affect to Social Security?".

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    • #3
      Social Security is Social Security. Everyone knows how it works. The whole argument about whether to put it in the Ponzi scheme bucket is just a question of "should we attach positive or negative affect to Social Security?".
      Pretty Blase, Kuci. No, not everyone knows how it works.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • #4
        And I'm sure that for the rest of the thread Ben will demonstrate that his last statement was correct.
        Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
        Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
        We've got both kinds

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        • #5

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          • #6
            Social security has been known to be a ponzi scheme since its inception. This isn't really news.
            If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
            ){ :|:& };:

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            • #7
              It's not even close to a ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes don't last for 75 years and still have a $2.5 trillion surplus.
              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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              • #8
                They do if everybody is required to pay into them. Mandatory participation is the only thing keeping it afloat.

                Social Security is at least honest about how it works. They're not claiming to be scamming the post office or anything. Still, it's not anything like a true retirement account.
                John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                • #9
                  They do if everybody is required to pay into them. Mandatory participation is the only thing keeping it afloat.
                  Yep.

                  As for it actually making money, imagine what you could have made if you had invested your contributions into the market?
                  Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                  "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                  2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                  • #10
                    "ponzi" scheme would be a "pyramid" scheme plus an element of fraudulent deceit.
                    Clearly social security has been run as a pyramid scheme. I do not believe the fraudulent element of a ponzi scheme to be established, not whithstanding some arguable deciet regarding social security. Many in government have politically connived, at maintaining popular misconceptions among the uniformed about social security being a dedicated investment fund for each worker, for the purpose of holding up its popular support. Yet the fact of it being just taxes and transfer payments is on the public record.
                    Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
                    Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
                    "Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
                    From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"

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                    • #11
                      A ponzi/pyramid scheme is one where you make money by getting other people to give you money (with the hope of getting more money by getting other people to give them money). Social Security is simply a welfare system [whereby old people are given some money to retire on, funded by taxes on the working class] whereby the amount of welfare is determined by how much you contributed to the welfare system as a worker. Seems like the most fair/'conservative' welfare system I've ever heard of... after all, normal welfare/AFDC/etc. is based on NOT working. At least Social Security is based on actually having worked in the past...

                      The problem is when people start thinking of Social Security as a retirement fund (ie, a government backed IRA/etc.) It's not. The government likes to pretend it is sometimes (as a marketing point), but it's not. Think of it as welfare [which is the purpose for it, and the actuality], and you'll have a much less difficult time with it.
                      <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                      I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                      • #12
                        Welfare shouldn't rely on a regressive tax, and it shouldn't distributes funds without any consideration of the recipient's needs.

                        Social Security resembles a ponzi scheme because the ratio of workers to retirees has historically declined, and Social Security is therefore a better deal for the first people to get in than it is for the next generation. In other words, the tax burden is higher on the people paying your benefits than they were when you were paying in. Their rewards will likely be less as well.

                        This has been less of an issue with actual retirement accounts, where money deposited is invested and put to productive use, instead of being used to pay current recipients. So long as stock prices have risen, or dividends were paid, the system has worked. That doesn't make it perfect, but it's better than ****ting all over the next generation.

                        Anybody who opposes Social Security reform is either stupid or evil.
                        John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                        • #13
                          Why are they stupid or evil for wanting to give welfare to old people.

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                          • #14
                            Because that welfare is given to all old people, whether they need it or not, and it's paid for by all workers, whether they can afford it or not. It's not right to take from the working poor, and give to people who might not need it.

                            If you oppose Social Security reform, you're either stupid or evil.
                            John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                            • #15
                              Okay, so how would they means-test the benefits? Would they reduce the payments you receive if you have more than a certain amount of wealth?

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