A Thread on Race and Multiculturalism for Hera

[Al B. Sure!]

As someone from a major East Coast American city, it is perplexing to me that people have a problem with immigrants or other ethnic groups not their own around them. I can not fathom why it would be a problem for anyone who isn't a supremacist.

[notyoueither]

However I still find such a economically sound multiculturalism (lets ignore "diversity's" effects of lowering trust for now) problematic for the following reasons:

1. Cultures differ, hence some cultures will out compete others for a given set of economic and environmental conditions

What I find is that in a real multicultural society, the best ideas become widely adopted by all/many/most of the population. Just like in a melting pot.

Also, when people are actually integrated, the effects of education and the dominant culture as applied to public and private life tend to be seen in the newcomers within a generation or two (if not immediately by the immigrants themselves). Ghettoisation slows this down, but even some people in isolated communities will break free when they are aware that there are opportunities and different lifestyles available elsewhere.

This happens for people from widely divergent ethnic cultures and is demonstrated over time in the US and Canada.

2. Humans have different values which are partially determined by culture

And when you actually integrate newcomers, they and their children rapidly adopt the best ideas of the dominant culture for themselves. This is especially true for girls from some ethnic cultures when they receive education and are exposed to the idea that they have opportunities. I don't care if she wears a hijab and marries a bearded man. She will likely use birth control and have a means to support herself if she decides that is what has to happen.

No matter what your system of values is, why allow cultures with different values the potential to supplant your own? Is it really a far stretch to imagine say orthodox Islam or fundamentalist Christianity triumphing through raw demographics in the absence of propaganda and indoctrination in state primary schools? And if you are using say schools or media to purposefully modify their culture so it looses it potency, isn't then the difference between assimilationist and multiculturalism one of degree rather than kind?

Those demographics don't tilt all one way. Given the chance, many of those children will think fondly of grandpa while adopting many or most of the traits of the dominant culture. We've been watching this happen for literally hundreds of years. It is not a theory.

Of course naturally different cultures cross-pollinating might create a better vehicle for your values, but considering human values are complex and fragile, why put trust in a purely Darwinian process? But as is implied in the previous paragraph process isn't Darwinian, since society has several tools such as say the state at its disposal to modify itself purposefully.

I don't think it is Darwinian. It is not a struggle to reproduce. It is a struggle of ideas, no matter the genetic material of the student. I have faith (as do most Canadians) in the inherent strengths of our way of life. Newcomers have been adopting the core of it and adding their own particular ethnic flavours for generations. The key is that it is pretty well universal that they come to accept the fundamentally important traits of our culture (the rule of law, responsible government, individual rights, the place of religion in society, etc).

That last item is an interesting one. The place of religion in society. A significant difference between Canadian and American culture is religion in the public square. Religion is much more important to Americans to discuss and argue about, it seems. It becomes an issue in political life. Meanwhile, most Canadians have no idea which church our Prime Minister belongs to, or even if he goes to any church at all (it has been reported on; I recall an article on him going to a service during the last election campaign, but most Canadians don't care). In Canada religion is a private matter. Newcomers from all over the world quickly adopt this attitude.

Does in the end faith in multiculturalism comes down to faith in Democracy and it working in the best interest of preserving the values and shaping the world in a way that is consistent to the values, of its voters?

No. It comes down to faith in the strengths of our culture.

Canada is a British culture. We have pockets of French and First Nations, but the fundamental nature of our nation is that of a daughter of the UK. We have absorbed waves of immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe, Asia, and elsewhere. They all have adopted the fundamentals of our society.

[Imran Siddiqui]

FWIW, the US isn't a "melting pot" per se as a stew. As pointed out, while Italians adopted English as their language and joined "American" society, they changed the society and added their own culture to the mix to the point where pizza is considered to be a standard in the American diet.

[notyoueither]

Imran makes a good point.

Canada calls itself multicultural for a variety of geographic and historical reasons, but we are much the same in absorbing newcomers. We just get an extra holiday out of it.

http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/canada/heritage-day

The page is slightly inaccurate. Heritage Day is a stat holiday in Alberta, but not a usual one. Businesses must observe either Family Day (in February) or Heritage Day. Many businesses do both, but the labour code only provides for one of the two.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

FWIW, the US isn't a "melting pot" per se as a stew. As pointed out, while Italians adopted English as their language and joined "American" society, they changed the society and added their own culture to the mix to the point where pizza is considered to be a standard in the American diet.

Those were easy and worthy additions to our culture considering our base stock was english cooking.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Any additional interesting cuisine is worthy additions

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Now if we could only subtract the english cooking portion.

[MikeH]

FWIW, the US isn't a "melting pot" per se as a stew. As pointed out, while Italians adopted English as their language and joined "American" society, they changed the society and added their own culture to the mix to the point where pizza is considered to be a standard in the American diet.

England is much the same, see Terry Prattchet's Ankh Morpork which is a reflection of the UK.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Now if we could only subtract the english cooking portion.

Stereotypes

There is plenty to enjoy in English cooking. Fish & Chips, Bangers & Mash, Cornish Pasty, and, heck, Chicken Tikka Masala is basically an English adaptation of the Indian Chicken Tikka.

[OzzyKP]

FWIW, the US isn't a "melting pot" per se as a stew. As pointed out, while Italians adopted English as their language and joined "American" society, they changed the society and added their own culture to the mix to the point where pizza is considered to be a standard in the American diet.

We are the borg. You will be assimilated and your distinctiveness added to the whole.

[Ben Kenobi]

Roman Catholic churches in early American and Canadian society, but now mosques are somehow an assault on 'our' culture?

Actually Roman Catholics were forbidden to practice their religion, to vote, to hold certain public offices in Britain up until the Emancipation which wasn't until the early 19th century. So if you're using Catholics as an example of religious toleration, then you're well off base.

As for why Islam should be treated differently, just look at Sharia. Muslims don't want to assimilate into the broad culture, they want to bring their culture here, which is contrary to Western codes of justice. There's simply no compromise between the west and Sharia possible. If Muslims are willing to assimilate, but the problem is that they are not assimilating. At all.

The English did not enforce all of their church and culture on those they conquered, and did not force later new comers to drop everything they came with.

Uh, yeah they did, which is one of the reasons why the Americans wrote their constitution the way that they did.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

[COMMENT][/COMMENT]

Stereotypes

There is plenty to enjoy in English cooking. Fish & Chips, Bangers & Mash, Cornish Pasty, and, heck, Chicken Tikka Masala is basically an English adaptation of the Indian Chicken Tikka.

Of the ones mentioned the only thing worth preserving is the Indian contribution.

[Ben Kenobi]

Imran, you left off Bubbles and squeak, Roast beef, Beef dips, real gravy, Yorkshire pudding, etc. The list goes on.

[Ben Kenobi]

Singapore seems to do multiculturalism fairly well.

Yeah and their PM concluded that there's only one group that doesn't play well with others. Want to guess who?

[Imran Siddiqui]

[COMMENT][/COMMENT]

Of the ones mentioned the only thing worth preserving is the Indian contribution.

I can't trust a person who doesn't enjoy fish & chips.