Could the United States afoord to NOT have medicare/medicaid?

[Ben Kenobi]

How does this have anything to do with paying for a health procedure?

Wasn't the question, how is government intervention save money? If the government collects a bounty from everyone, then how are they saving money?

How are you not paying anything at all for a health procedure? Do you simply run out when the bill is due?

No, I'm just healthy and I look after myself. I don't use the system, and the plan as proposed would force me to fund the system.

If the plan is to force people to pay for other people's medical bills, then lets get honest about this. Do you think it would be fair to you to pay for my medical care? Say a random lottery selection. I went in for care, and the wheel spun and said that you were the one responsible for the bill.

Any assessement of cost needs to look at how much the government is collecting in taxes to fund the present system. Ignoring this half of the equation completely misses the point. A system can be 'cheap' or 'expensive' based on what it charges to the end user, and yet have the complete opposite result when taking into consideration the true cost of keeping the system.

Then it raises the question of rationing. Is your system really better if it costs less, but you can't get the care you need? This doesn't happen in America, you can get the care you need, if it's paid for. This would include expensive care that would not otherwise be paid for, which would also be an incentive for practicioners to provide this care. This needs to be taken into account too.

[giblets]

Are you gaging 'better than average outcomes' from the studies claiming that Canadians live longer?

Statistically, white Americans live longer than white Canadians. Correct for other variables and Canada's system does a worse job.

Really? Because this site says white Americans only have a life expectancy of 78.4 as of 2007. That's ~2 years less than Canada's life expectancy.

[DaShi]

Ben lies.

[notyoueither]

Are you gaging 'better than average outcomes' from the studies claiming that Canadians live longer?

Statistically, white Americans live longer than white Canadians. Correct for other variables and Canada's system does a worse job.

I am gauging the average level of care.

Going from memory mostly, but I just checked on infant mortality and it is still true AFAICT. Do only white babies count?

We do spend less and get better results for most of our population, but Canada is not the best example for the Yanks to follow anyway. Many other countries have better systems than Canada for the US to look at.

I think the overall system for everyone is the important bit. I am well aware that HC has better care for many things available to him than I do. That's not the point. The point is that him introducing the Congo as a rebutal to comparisons with Canada's healthcare system is missing the mark, widely. Another point is that the system that gives him better care is bankrupting families and the country.

[Ben Kenobi]

Going from memory mostly, but I just checked on infant mortality and it is still true AFAICT. Do only white babies count?

You could just as easily conclude men vs women. Different pools have different risk factors. You have to take into account all factors.

We do spend less and get better results for most of our population, but Canada is not the best example for the Yanks to follow anyway. Many other countries have better systems than Canada for the US to look at.

Agreed. Canada's system is terrible and I am saddened to see so many Americans wanting what they've not got, but not appreciating that they've got it better.

Another point is that the system that gives him better care is bankrupting families and the country.

As opposed to Canada's system which is doing the same?

[Ben Kenobi]

Gribbler, doesn't say anything about Canada there.

[KrazyHorse]

KH is probably the other person with more experience with both systems. He pretty much agrees with me. The US has a higher standard of care.

I never said that the US has a higher standard of care.

[KrazyHorse]

Why?

Why must rationing be imposed or why does he believe the costs of health care in the US are unsustainable?

[giblets]

Gribbler, doesn't say anything about Canada there.

No, I used it as a source for the life expectancy of white Americans. Feel free to look up the life expectancy of Canada yourself and find that it is over 80 years.

[Kuciwalker]

Why must rationing be imposed or why does he believe the costs of health care in the US are unsustainable?

The latter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, I figure that based on current trends (from wikipedia):



if that continues, we (as in the US) is ****ed.

[KrazyHorse]

The obvious solution is to reduce even further the out-of-pocket expenses borne by health care consumers in the US.

[KrazyHorse]

Another great solution would be to give doctors even more control over the market for their own labor.

[Hauldren Collider]

Why don't we just do it Cuba style? Michael Moore tells me that the Cuban healthcare system is one of the greatest on the planet, if not #1! Why do you think Hugo Chavez went there for his tumor surgery?

[giblets]

Just to make things clear for Alby, those last two (edit: three) posts are examples of sarcasm.