Leaving Afghanistan

[Lorizael]

Thanks for this. Now people can see just why you quoted exactly what you did.

Now, when you say people, what are you referring to?

People
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses of this term, see People (disambiguation)

People at a Dutch train stationPeople is a plurality of human beings or other beings possessing enough qualities constituting personhood. It has two usages:

as the plural of person (in addition to the rarer plural, "persons") or a group of people (grammatically, a suppletive plural and collective noun; e.g. "some people are..."), or otherwise for groups with particular unifying traits, qualities, properties, or characteristics (e.g. the people of Spain, or the people of the Plains).
as a singular for an indefinite ethnic group or nation (e.g. "a people is...")
Because the word people often refers to abstract and general types of groups, the word persons is sometimes used in place of people, especially when it would be ambiguous with its collective sense (e.g. missing persons instead of people). It can collectively refer to all humans or it can be used to identify a certain ethnic or religious group. For example, "people of color" is a phrase used in North America to describe non-whites.[1]

Contents [hide]
1 In philosophy and theory
2 In politics
3 In law
4 See also
5 Footnotes


In philosophy and theory
The concept of personhood (who is a person within a society) is the fundamental component of any selective concept of people. A distinction is maintained in philosophy and law between the notions "human being", or "man", and "person". The former refers to the species, while the latter refers to a rational agent (see, for example, John Locke's Essay concerning Human Understanding II 27 and Immanuel Kant's Introduction to the Metaphysic of Morals). Central issues of interest to people are the understanding of the human condition and the meaning of life, and survival. Religion, philosophy, and science show or represent modes and aspects of inquiry which attempt to investigate and understand the nature, behavior, and purpose of people. Sociology, economics, and politics represent modes by which people investigate how to maximize a collective survival strategy.[citation needed]

In politics
Main article: Common people

Liberty Leading the People by Eugène DelacroixVarious republics govern, or claim to govern, in the name of the people. Both the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire used the Latin term Senatus Populusque Romanus, (the Senate and People of Rome). This term was fixed to Roman legionary standards, and even after the Roman Emperors achieved a state of total personal autarchy, they continued to wield their power in the name of the Senate and People of Rome. A People's Republic is typically a Marxist or socialist one-party state that claims to govern on behalf of the people. Populism is another umbrella term for various political tendencies that claim to represent the people, usually with an implication that they serve the common people instead of the elite.

In law
Further information: Popular sovereignty
In criminal law, in certain jurisdictions, criminal prosecutions are brought in the name of the People. Several U.S. states, including California, Illinois, and New York, use this style.[2] Citations outside the jurisdictions in question usually substitute the name of the state for the words "the People" in the case captions.[3] Four states — Massachusetts, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky — refer to themselves as the Commonwealth in case captions and legal process.[4] Other states, such as Indiana, typically refer to themselves as the State in case captions and legal process. Outside the United States, criminal trials in the Ireland and the Philippines are prosecuted in the name of the people of their respective states.

The political theory underlying this format is that criminal prosecutions are brought in the name of the sovereign; thus, in these U.S. states, the "people" are judged to be the sovereign, even as in the United Kingdom and other dependencies of the British Crown, criminal prosecutions are typically brought in the name of the Crown. "The people" identifies the entire body of the citizens of a jurisdiction invested with political power or gathered for political purposes.[5]

See also
People portal
Book: People
Wikipedia Books are collections of articles that can be downloaded or ordered in print.
Lists of people
Nationality
Tribe
Footnotes
Look up people in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
Wikimedia Commons has media related to: People
^ Safire, William. "On language: People of color" The New York Times, November 20, 1988. See also: "The Black Press at 150", editorial, The Washington Post, March 18, 1977
^ See, e.g., California v. Anderson 6 Cal. 3d 628; 493 P.2d 880; 100 Cal. Rptr. 152; 1972 Cal. LEXIS 154 (1972)
^ See generally, The Bluebook: A Uniform System of Citation, rule 10.
^ See Commonwealth (United States)
^ Black's Law Dictionary, 5th ed., "People".

And when you say thanks, is that an expression of gratitude?

Gratitude
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Gratitude (disambiguation).
"Thank" redirects here. For the protein symbol THANK, see THANK.
For other uses, see Thank You.
For other uses, see Thanks.

American Flag and Cross in Normandy American Cemetery and MemorialGratitude, thankfulness, gratefulness, or appreciation is a positive emotion or attitude in acknowledgment of a benefit that one has received or will receive. The experience of gratitude has historically been a focus of several world religions,[1] and has been considered extensively by moral philosophers such as Adam Smith.[2] The systematic study of gratitude within psychology only began around the year 2000, possibly because psychology has traditionally been focused more on understanding distress rather than understanding positive emotions. However, with the advent of the positive psychology movement,[3] gratitude has become a mainstream focus of psychological research.[4] The study of gratitude within psychology has focused on the understanding of the short term experience of the emotion of gratitude (state gratitude), individual differences in how frequently people feel gratitude (trait gratitude), and the relationship between these two aspects.[5][6]

Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: gratitude
Look up gratitude in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
Contents [hide]
1 Gratitude as an emotion
1.1 Gratitude and indebtedness
1.2 Gratitude as a motivator of behavior
2 Major theoretical approaches to gratitude
2.1 Hebraic conceptions of gratitude
2.2 Christian conceptions of gratitude
2.3 Islamic conceptions of gratitude
3 Individual differences in gratitude
4 Empirical findings
4.1 Gratitude and well-being
4.2 Gratitude and altruism
4.3 Interventions to increase gratitude
5 Conclusions
6 Further reading
7 References


[edit] Gratitude as an emotion
Gratitude is an emotion that occurs after people receive help, depending on how they interpret the situation. Specifically, gratitude is experienced if people perceive the help they receive as (a) valuable to them, (b) costly to their benefactor, and (c) given by the benefactor with benevolent intentions (rather than ulterior motives).[5][7] When faced with identical situations where they have been given help, different people view the situation very differently in terms of value, cost, and benevolent intentions, and this explains why people feel differing levels of gratitude after they have been helped.[5][8] People who generally experience more gratitude in life habitually interpret help as more costly, more beneficial, and more beneficially intended; and this habitual bias explains why some people feel more gratitude than others.[5]

[edit] Gratitude and indebtedness
Gratitude is not the same as indebtedness. While both emotions occur following help, indebtedness occurs when a person perceives that they are under an obligation to make some repayment of compensation for the aid.[9] The emotions lead to different actions; indebtedness can motivate the recipient of the aid to avoid the person who has helped them, whereas gratitude can motivate the recipient to seek out their benefactor and to improve their relationship with them.[10][11]

[edit] Gratitude as a motivator of behavior
Gratitude may also serve to reinforce future prosocial behavior in benefactors. For example, one experiment found that customers of a jewelry store who were called and thanked showed a subsequent 70% increase in purchases. In comparison, customers who were thanked and told about a sale showed only a 30% increase in purchases, and customers who were not called at all did not show an increase.[12] In another study, regular patrons of a restaurant gave bigger tips when servers wrote “Thank you” on their checks.[13]

[edit] Major theoretical approaches to gratitude
The link between spirituality and gratitude has recently become a popular subject of study. While these two characteristics are certainly not dependant on each other, studies have found that spirituality is capable of enhancing a person’s ability to be grateful and therefore, those who regularly attend religious services or engage in religious activities are more likely to have a greater sense of gratitude in all areas of life.[14][15] Gratitude is viewed as a prized human propensity in the Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, and Hindu traditions.[16] Worship with gratitude to God is a common theme in such religions and therefore, the concept of gratitude permeates religious texts, teachings, and traditions. For this reason, it is one of the most common emotions that religions aim to provoke and maintain in followers and is regarded as a universal religious sentiment [17]

[edit] Hebraic conceptions of gratitude
In Judaism, gratitude is an essential part of the act of worship and a part of every aspect of a worshiper’s life. According to the Hebrew worldview, all things come from God and because of this, gratitude is extremely important to the followers of Judaism. The Hebrew Scriptures are filled with the idea of gratitude. Two examples included in the psalms are “O Lord my God, I will give thanks to you forever,” and “I will give thanks to the Lord with my whole heart” (Ps. 30:12; Ps. 9:1). The Jewish prayers also often incorporate gratitude beginning with the Shema, where the worshiper states that out of gratitude, “You shall love the Eternal, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might” (Deut. 6:5). The concluding prayer, the Alenu, also speaks of gratitude by thanking God for the particular destiny of the Jewish people. Along with these prayers, faithful worshipers recite more than one hundred blessings called berakhots throughout the day.[16]

[edit] Christian conceptions of gratitude

New Orleans: Thank you message in the grotto of Our Lady of Guadalupe Church; added by those for whom prayer or miracles were grantedGratitude has been said to mold and shape the entire Christian life. Martin Luther referred to gratitude as “The basic Christian attitude” and today it is still referred to as “the heart of the gospel.”[17] As each Christian believes they were created by a personal God, Christians are strongly encouraged to praise and give gratitude to their creator. In Christian gratitude, God is seen as the selfless giver of all good things and because of this, there is a great sense of indebtedness that enables Christians to share a common bond, shaping all aspects of a follower’s life. Gratitude in Christianity is an acknowledgment of God’s generosity that inspires Christians to shape their own thoughts and actions around such ideals.[18] Instead of simply a sentimental feeling, Christian gratitude is regarded as a virtue that shapes not only emotions and thoughts but actions and deeds as well.[17] According to Jonathan Edwards (theologian), in his A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections Love, Gratitude, and thankfulness toward God are among the signs of true religion. Because of this interpretation, modern measures of religious spirituality include assessments of thankfulness and gratitude towards God. Allport (1950) suggested that mature religious intentions come from feelings of profound gratitude and Edwards (1746/1959) claimed that the “affection” of gratitude is one of the most accurate ways of finding the presence of God in a person’s life. In a study done by Samuels and Lester (1985) it was contended that in a small sample of Catholic nuns and priests, out of 50 emotions, love and gratitude were the most experienced emotion towards God.[16]

[edit] Islamic conceptions of gratitude
The Islamic book, The Quran, is filled with the idea of gratitude. Islam encourages its followers to be grateful and express thanks to God in all circumstances. Islamic teaching emphasizes the idea that those who are grateful will be rewarded with great pleasures. A traditional Islamic saying states that, “The first who will be summoned to paradise are those who have praised God in every circumstance”[19] In the Quran it is also stated in Sura 14 that those who are grateful will be given more pleasures by God. The prophet Mohammad also said, “Gratitude for the abundance you have received is the best insurance that the abundance will continue.” Many practices of the Islamic faith also encourage gratitude. The Pillar of Islam calling for daily prayer encourages believers to pray to God five times a day in order to thank him for his goodness. The pillar of fasting during the month of Ramadan is for the purpose of putting the believer in a state of gratitude.[16]

[edit] Individual differences in gratitude
Much of the recent work psychological research into gratitude has focused on the nature of individual difference in gratitude, and the consequences of being a more or less grateful person.[4] Three scales have been developed to measure individual differences in gratitude, each of which assesses somewhat different conceptions.[20] The GQ6[21] measures individual differences in how frequently and intensely people feel gratitude. The Appreciation Scale[22] measures 8 different aspects of gratitude: appreciation of people, possessions, the present moment, rituals, feeling of awe, social comparisons, existential concerns, and behaviour which expresses gratitude. The GRAT[23] assesses gratitude towards other people, gratitude towards the world in general, and a lack of resentment for what you do not have. A recent study showed that each of these scales are actually all measuring the same way of approaching life; this suggests that individual differences in gratitude include all of these components.[20]

[edit] Empirical findings
[edit] Gratitude and well-being
A large body of recent work has suggested that people who are more grateful have higher levels of well-being. Grateful people are happier, less depressed, less stressed, and more satisfied with their lives and social relationships[21][24][25] Grateful people also have higher levels of control of their environments, personal growth, purpose in life, and self acceptance.[26] Grateful people have more positive ways of coping with the difficulties they experience in life, being more likely to seek support from other people, reinterpreted and grow from the experience, and spend more time planning how to deal with the problem.[27] Grateful people also have less negative coping strategies, being less likely to try to avoid the problem, deny there is a problem, blame themselves, or cope through substance use.[27] Grateful people sleep better, and this seems to be because they think less negative and more positive thoughts just before going to sleep.[28]

Gratitude has been said to have one of the strongest links with mental health of any character trait. Numerous studies suggest that grateful people are more likely to have higher levels of happiness and lower levels of stress and depression.[29][30] In one study concerning gratitude, participants were randomly assigned to one of six therapeutic intervention conditions designed to improve the participant’s overall quality of life (Seligman et. all., 2005).[31] Out of these conditions, it was found that the biggest short-term effects came from a “gratitude visit” where participants wrote and delivered a letter of gratitude to someone in their life. This condition showed a rise in happiness scores by 10 percent and a significant fall in depression scores, results which lasted up to one month after the visit. Out of the six conditions, the longest lasting effects were caused by the act of writing “gratitude journals” where participants were asked to write down three things they were grateful for every day. These participants’ happiness scores also increased and continued to increase each time they were tested periodically after the experiment. In fact, the greatest benefits were usually found to occur around six months after treatment began. This exercise was so successful that although participants were only asked to continue the journal for a week, many participants continued to keep the journal long after the study was over. Similar results have been found from studies conducted by Emmons and McCullough (2003)[14] and Lyubomirsky et. all. (2005).[30]

Whilst many emotions and personality traits are important to well-being, there is evidence that gratitude may be uniquely important. First, a longitudinal study showed that people who were more grateful coped better with a life transition. Specifically, people who were more grateful before the transition were less stressed, less depressed, and more satisfied with their relationships three months later.[32] Second, two recent studies have suggested that gratitude may have a unique relationship with well-being, and can explain aspects of well-being that other personality traits cannot. Both studies showed that gratitude was able to explain more well-being than the Big Five and 30 of the most commonly studied personality traits.[24][26]

[edit] Gratitude and altruism
Gratitude has also been shown to improve a person’s altruistic tendencies. One study conducted by David DeSteno and Monica Bartlett (2010) found that gratitude is correlated with economic generosity. In this study, using an economic game, increased gratitude was shown to directly mediate increased monetary giving. From these results, this study shows that gracious people are more likely to sacrifice individual gains for communal profit (DeSteno & Bartlett, 2010). A Study conducted by McCullough, Emmons, & Tsang, (2002) found similar correlations between gratitude and empathy, generosity, and helpfulness.[33][34]

[edit] Interventions to increase gratitude
Given that gratitude appears to be a strong determinant of people's well-being, several psychological interventions have been developed to increase gratitude.[4][35] For example, Watkins and colleagues[36] had participants test a number of different gratitude exercises, such as thinking about a living person for whom they were grateful, writing about someone for whom they were grateful, and writing a letter to deliver to someone for whom they were grateful. Participants in the control condition were asked to describe their living room. Participants who engaged in a gratitude exercise showed increases in their experiences of positive emotion immediately after the exercise, and this effect was strongest for participants who were asked to think about a person for whom they were grateful. Participants who had grateful personalities to begin with showed the greatest benefit from these gratitude exercises.

[edit] Conclusions
According to Cicero, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of the virtues but the parent of all others.” Multiple studies have shown the correlation between gratitude and increased wellbeing not only for the individual but for all people involved.[29][37] The positive psychology movement has embraced these studies and in an effort to increase overall wellbeing, has begun to make an effort to incorporate exercises to increase gratitude into the movement. Although in the past gratitude has been neglected by psychology, in recent years much progress has been made in studying gratitude and its positive effects.

[edit] Further reading
Encyclopedia of Gratitude. A reference book and free website with hundreds of things to be grateful for, from New York Times bestselling author Erich Origen.
[edit] References
^ Emmons, R. A., & Crumpler, C. A. (2000). Gratitude as a human strength: Appraising the evidence. Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology, 19, 56-69
^ Smith, A. (1790/1976). The Theory of Moral Sentiments (6th ed.). Indianapolis, IN: Liberty Classics. (Original work published 1790).
^ Linley, P. A., Joseph, S., Harrington, S., & Wood, A. M. (2006). Positive psychology: Past, present, and (possible) future.The Journal of Positive Psychology, 1, 3-16.
^ a b c Wood, A. M., Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2007). Gratitude: The parent of all virtues. The Psychologist, 20, 18-21
^ a b c d Wood, A. M., Maltby, J., Stewart, N., Linley, P. A., & Joseph, S. (2008). A social-cognitive model of trait and state levels of gratitude.Emotion, 8, 281-290.
^ McCullough, M. E., Tsang, J. & Emmons, R. A. (2004). Gratitude in intermediate affective terrain: Links of grateful moods to individual differences and daily emotional experience. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 86,295-309. (electronic copy)
^ Lane, J., & Anderson, N. H. (1976). Integration of intention and outcome in moral judgment. Memory and Cognition, 4, 1-5.
^ Tesser, A., Gatewood, R., & Driver, M. (1968). Some determinants of gratitude. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 9, 233-236.
^ Greenberg, M. S. (1980). A theory of indebtedness. In K. J. Gergen, M. S. Greenberg & R. H. Wills (Eds.), Social exchange: Advances in theory and research: New York: Plenum.
^ Watkins, P. C., Scheer, J., Ovnicek, M., & Kolts, R. (2006). The debt of gratitude: Dissociating gratitude and indebtedness. Cognition and Emotion, 20, 217-241.
^ Tsang, J. A. (2006).
^ Carey, J. R., Clicque, S. H., Leighton, B. A., & Milton, F. (1976). A test of positive reinforcement of customers. Journal of Marketing, 40, 98-100.
^ Rind, B., & Bordia, P. (1995). Effect of server's "Thank you" and personalization on restaurant tipping. Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 25, 745-751.
^ a b McCullough, M.E., Emmons, R.A., & Tsang, J. (2002). The grateful disposition: A conceptual and empirical topography. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 83, 112-127
^ Emmons, Robert A., and Michael E. McCullough. "Highlights from the Research Project of Gratitude and Thankfulness". http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/labs/emmons/. Retrieved 27 August 2010.
^ a b c d Emmons, Robert A., and Cheryl A. Crumpler. "Gratitude as a Human Strength: Appraising the Evidence." Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology 19.1 (2000): 56-69. Print.
^ a b c Emmons, Robert A., and Teresa T. Kneezel. "Giving Gratitude: Spiritual and Religious Correlates of Gratitude." Journal of Psychology and Christianity 24.2 (2005): 140-48. Print.
^ Emmons, Robert Ą., and Cheryl A. Crumpler. "Gratitude as a Human Strength: Appraising the Evidence." Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology 19.1 (2000): 56-69. Print.
^ Wood, Alex, Stephen Joseph, and Alex Linley. "Gratitude--Parent of All Virtues." The Psychologist 20.1 (2007): 18-21. Print.
^ a b Wood, A. M., Maltby, J., Stewart, N., & Joseph, S. (2008). Conceptualizing gratitude and appreciation as a unitary personality trait. Personality and Individual Differences, 44, 619-630.
^ a b McCullough, M. E., Emmons, R. A., & Tsang, J. (2002). The grateful disposition: A conceptual and empirical topography. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 82, 112-127.
^ Adler, M. G., & Fagley, N. S. (2005). Appreciation: Individual differences in finding value and meaning as a unique predictor of subjective well-being. Journal of Personality, 73, 79-114.
^ Watkins, P. C., Woodward, K., Stone, T., & Kolts, R. L. (2003). Gratitude and happiness: Development of a measure of gratitude, and relationships with subjective well-being. Social Behavior and Personality', 31, 431-451.
^ a b Wood, A. M., Joseph, S., & Maltby, J. (2008). PersonalPages.Manchester.ac.uk, Gratitude uniquely predicts satisfaction with life: Incremental validity above the domains and facets of the Five Factor Model. Personality and Individual Differences, 45, 49-54.
^ Kashdan, T.B., Uswatte, G., & Julian, T. (2006). Gratitude and hedonic and eudaimonic well-being in Vietnam War veterans. Behaviour Research and Therapy, 44, 177-199.
^ a b Wood, A. M., Joseph, S. & Maltby (2009). Gratitude predicts psychological well-being above the Big Five facets. Personality and Individual Differences, 45, 655-660.
^ a b Wood, A. M., Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2007). Coping style as a psychological resource of grateful people. Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology, 26, 1108–1125.
^ Wood, A. M., Joseph, S., Lloyd, J., & Atkins, S. (2009). Gratitude influences sleep through the mechanism of pre-sleep cognitions. Journal of Psychosomatic Research, 66, 43-48
^ a b McCullough, M. E., Tsang, J., & Emmons, R.A. (2004). Gratitude in Intermediate affective terrain: Links of grateful moods with individual differences and daily emotional experience. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 86, 295-309.
^ a b Wood, Alex, Stephen Joseph, and Alex Linley. "Gratitude--Parent of All Virtues." The Psychologist 20.1 (2007): 18-21. Print.
^ Seligman, M. E. P., Steen, T. A., Park, N.,& Peterson, C. (2005). Positive psychology progress: Empirical validation of interventions. American Psychologist, 60, 410-421.
^ Wood, A. M., Maltby, J., Gillett, R., Linley, P. A., & Joseph, S. (2008). The role of gratitude in the development of social support, stress, and depression: Two longitudinal studies. Journal of Research in Personality, 42, 854-871.
^ DeSteno, David, and Monica Bartlett (9 April 2010). "Gratitude as a Moral Sentiment: Emotion Guided Cooperation in Economic Exchange". PsycARTICLES. Vanderbilt University. http://csaweb116v.csa.com.proxy.library.vanderbilt.edu/ids70/view_recrd.php?id=2&recnum=2&log=from_res&SID=lvn78o4qht7j6g7k7o2l05nv1&mark_id=search%3A2%3A0%2C0%2C10. Retrieved 29 August 2010.
^ Emmons, Robert A., and Michael E. McCullough.. "Highlights from the Research Project on Gratitude and Thankfulness". http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/labs/emmons/. Retrieved 27 August 2010.
^ Emmons, R. A. & McCullough, M. E. (2003). Counting blessings versus burdens: An experimental investigation of gratitude and subjective well-being in daily life. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 84, 377-389. (electronic copy)
^ Watkins, P. C., Woodward, K., Stone, T., & Kolts, R. L. (2003). Gratitude and happiness: Development of a measure of gratitude, and relationships with subjective well-being. Social Behavior and Personality, 31, 431-452.
^ DeSteno, David, and Monica Bartlett (9 April 2010). "Gratitude as a Moral Sentiment: Emotion Guided Cooperation in Economic Exchange". PsycARTICLES. Vanderbilt University. http://csaweb116v.csa.com.proxy.library.vanderbilt.edu/ids70/view_recrd.php?id=2&recnum=2&log=from_res&SID=lvn78o4qht7j6g7k7o2l05nv1&mark_id=search%3A2%3A0%2C0%2C10. Retrieved 27 August 2010.

[Ben Kenobi]

worst person on Apolyton

That's a badge of honour.

[Ben Kenobi]

Lorizael:

People, meaning posters on Apolyton.

Yeah, it is an expression of gratitude.

[Dinner]

Fox is reporting that the Taliban has actually taken over more territory this year then they had last year.

[Zevico]

Cockney's posts are always interesting to read.

Here is one:

it's not surprising that a regional power like iran should want to exert its influence in the region and do some very nasty things in the process, the same goes for syria. it's also no surprise that another regional power, israel, should want to resist their efforts to do so, especially on their own doorstep. israel certainly has a lot of enemies and a lot of problems, but irsael's problems are precisely that. israel's. if you want to support israel's foreign policy agenda directly, then you are free to go and join the IDF, but why should australia or britain, the USA or brasil be focused on israel's concerns? the point i'm making is that we shouldn't. the western world should be involved in facilitating a political solution to these problems, not in supporting those who have no interest in peace.

He said this reply to my post which, among other things, asserted that Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hezballah all actively participated in (or in the case of the MB and Hamas, endorsed) the killing of American soldiers and civilians. I made the rather uncontroversial statement that this was contrary to American interests, and that opposing these groups was in American interests. As between Bin Laden and America, by the way, each of these groups heartily condemned the killing of "Sheikh" Bin Laden.
In Cockney's view, pointing all this out is tantamount to advocacy for Israel. After all, I am but a Jew, so I should just "go join the IDF", because murdering Americans, Canadians and Australians---Islamists have done all of those things, by the way--has nothing to do with American, Canadian or Australian interests. (Jemaah Islamiyah wants to have a word with you about Israeli interests. They killed about 200 Australians in the Bali bombings of 2002. Of course, if I'm worried about Jemaah Islamiyah, naturally I should join the IDF, yes?.)

The fact that these groups kill and support the killing of Westerners, quite openly, and on religious grounds, is irrelevant. It's all just pro-Israel advocacy to Cockney.

And I, for one, think that's astounding.

Almost as astounding as this:

who is us here? you mean australia right...?

Which is really quite obtuse. The clear implication is that I don't advocate for "Australian" interests; "us" is Israel, Jews, etc. Amazing. We jews and our devious ways, and so forth.

Who is "us" here?" Well, the United States was the country I was writing about. You can tell, because "the US", with US capitalised, refers to the "United States." Apparently, pointing out that the United States (and the West more generally) has certain interests in the Middle East is tantamount to Israel advocacy. Yes indeed: when I see every Islamist group in the Middle East condemn the "murder" of the "Sheikh" Osama Bin Laden, I think about Israel and how this will affect it. Well, it indicates nothing in particular about Islamist policy vis-a-vis Israel and everything about Islamist policy vis-a-vis Western interests, which include the destruction of Al Qaeda. So yes, when I think "Islamists condemn Bin Laden's death as Murder of Islamic religious scholar", I think "the west is threatened." Naturally, this means I should go join the IDF--the only place, according to Cockney, where western interests are actually defended.

And I find that both ironic and entertaining.

Thank you, Cockney, for making my day.

[Al B. Sure!]

I like how Ben, besides mistaking the Abbasids for the Umayyads and continually intentionally mis-spelling the name Umayyads even after constant correction, somehow thinks that a single example means I'm wrong when I pretty clearly stated:

In fact, one difference between those two faiths is that only Islam accepts Christians, Jews, and (to varying extents) even Hindus, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists as 'people of the book' who are permitted to practice their own faiths.

I gave myself enough leeway by noting TO VARYING EXTENTS, Zoroastrians were permitted to practice their own faiths. I'm well-aware of history and how the tolerance of Zoroastrianism was not always consistent.

[C0ckney]

There's some truth to that but there's always people who will not only never be satisfied but concessions will galvanize them. And when an institution to represent them still exists because it has generated enough momentum and permeated through the society, they'll still make noise. Even if support for Hamas is reduced to an insignificant in size minority, it will still be a vocal (and possibly violent) minority.

There still needs to be definite improvement in the conditions and opportunities for Palestinians. Ironically enough, those improvements have largely been shouldered by the humanitarian efforts of Hamas itself. It's just my belief that the US, Israel, or whatever else suddenly caring for the Palestinians wouldn't make Hamas suddenly disappear. As well as improving the lives of Palestinians, we'd need a war on the militant wing of Hamas... hopefully by the Palestinian Authority and not by the IDF, though.

i broadly agree with this.

if hamas is reduced to a small, if vocal, minority then obviously its power will decrease and this will be better for everyone. at the moment it is a movement which enjoys the support of the population. the reasons for this are no mystery. the way to change this state of affairs is not rocket science either. it's clear that the blockade is making hamas stronger and not weaker and yet it continues. it makes you think that there are other motives at work (which i will expand upon soon).

[C0ckney]

Until Hamas will concede Israels right to exist and stops being committed to it's extermination, Israel has the right to defend itself. What you may call murder in some cases may be collateral damage. IT's a grey area where your point of view will determine how you call it. Most Americans view Israel as under siege and is just defending itself. The large number of Jews in the US help buoy that opinion. I'll admit that I used to fully support them. I'll give credit for all those here that have a different opinion since I don't think so black/white on the issue anymore. Most people in the US don't actively seek out that information. Most just hear about Hamas refusing to acknowledge their right to exist. That's a powerful statement.

yes i think ignorance is certainly a problem when it comes to the middle east. it's good that people like you choose to do some more research and i can respect people who come to a different conclusion, as long as they have taken the time to look into it.

an israeli poster on this site (az, IIRC) admitted in a old discussion that the whole gaza thing is essentially a political game against iran, to stop them gaining influence there. i happen to agree with his view.

And deep down, I don't believe that it's Israel's intent to abuse, degrade and murder Palestinians. (but I think they're wrong on the settlements and wish we would push them harder on that issue)
On the other hand, it's hard to sympathize with those that outright declare it's their intent to exterminate all the Jews.

it really depends what you mean by intent. if you mean that the israelis think "our policy is to abuse, degrade and murder some palestinians" then no they don't intend to do that. if, however, you mean that israel thinks "we need to stop iran, who support hamas, and therefore we will blockade gaza to achieve this aim, and if while doing this we have to reduce the palestinians to penury, humiliate them on a daily basis, destroy their economy, make a normal life impossible for them and if innocent people die as a result, well, that's a pity..." then the answer is yes. so it's a callous disregard, but it's one that your country actively supports, politically, morally and materially.

also, it's worth noting that the longer the palestinian question remains unsolved, the more settlements can expand in the west bank, appeasing the israeli right, but making any peace deal more and more difficult.

[C0ckney]

i'd like to apologise to zevico. for a number of things, listed below.

1) i'm sorry that you feel the need to constantly mention the fact you are jewish. as it happens i couldn't care less about your religion or ethnicity.
2) i'm sorry that you can't grasp the fact that attacks by on western countries by a few extremists do not mean that we are having some sort of existential crisis in the west.
3) i'm sorry that you don't understand that treating it as such is, while no doubt helpful to israeli interests, playing directly into said extremists' hands.
4) i'm sorry that my reference to the swedish volunteers in the winter war was too subtle for your intellect to handle.
5) i'm sorry that you took half a page to not quite say something which i said directly in the very same post you quoted.
6) i'm sorry that reading is so difficult for you.

[rah]

Yes the US originally supported the blockade as you said but last year Hillary stated that it was unsustainable and unacceptable. And while it has not been removed, Israel has modified it in response and toned it down so maybe the harshness of your opinion needs to modified a touch also.
I do agree that it needs to be modified further, but attempting to keep out items that could be used to fight them is fair in my opinion. What they deem could be harmful does seem like a stretch on some items.

[C0ckney]

a cynical person might say that a lot of the 'strong words' uttered by US politicians are just that, words. they don't seem to influence israeli actions. i think the changes to the blockade have been cosmetic in nature. the US does have the means to influence israeli action more forcefully, through its aid program, but it chooses not to do so. a cynical person might say therefore that it's all just for appearances.

of course i recognise what you say about US domestic politics on this issue. i remember the howls of protest from the israeli lobby when obama looked like he might be moving to a position of slightly less than 100% support for israel.

i think on the gaza issue, we might see movement from the egyptians, especially after they elect a new government. many eygptian political figures have indicated they want to lift the blockade on their side, and hopefully they will do this. this is also why we are seeing a lot of propaganda from the israeli lobby at the moment about how nasty and evil those who are likely to form the next government in eygpt are.

[rah]

I firmly believe that Israel doesn't completely answer to anybody. History as proved that Israel doesn't do everything we tell them to despite threats. Could we apply more pressure? Probably. Would it be effective? Maybe a little but not as much as you probably think.

Yes we'll see if the changes in Egypt make this moot.

And yes, while the Israeli lobby like to howl, I think overall in America, that support for Israel is slightly declining. They continually do stupid things and are losing the propaganda war. Which they would take a bigger beating, if Hamas would just lie and say they support their right to exist. A lot of support for Israel would cave and put more pressure on them to make bigger concessions.

[Zevico]

1) i'm sorry that you feel the need to constantly mention the fact you are jewish. as it happens i couldn't care less about your religion or ethnicity.

Really? I mentioned it once. I guess that counts as "constantly," though.

2) i'm sorry that you can't grasp the fact that attacks by on western countries by a few extremists do not mean that we are having some sort of existential crisis in the west.

"Existential crisis"? I'm pretty sure the fact that 3,000 Westerners died on 9/11 (Americans, most of them) counts as a direct threat. I'm pretty sure sponsoring and endorsing the people who do that ("Islamists") counts as threatening. I'm pretty sure that, militarily and economically, Islamist political movements are not strong compared to the West, but if we persist in ignoring them that will hardly improve things.

3) i'm sorry that you don't understand that treating it as such is, while no doubt helpful to israeli interests, playing directly into said extremists' hands.

If "treating it as such is...playing directly into said extremists hands" that helps no one, Israel included. But the premise is wrong--acting against countries that work to kill your people is a necessary action.

4)

i'm sorry that my reference to the swedish volunteers in the winter war was too subtle for your intellect to handle.

My logic does not dictate that swedes who fought the soviets were necessarily nazis, but that is ultimately irrelevant to the practical question of the time--who to support and why. From the Western perspective of that time, the fact that the Soviet Union was invading neutral countries was irrelevant because Nazism was the greater threat from their perspective. Wringing hands about the innocent Swedish lives lost as a consequence would be well and good up to the moment of Western defeat.
As Churchhill put it: "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
As to your logic, since you have left the import of your analogy unexplained--explain it.

[Cort Haus]

You conveniently brush over the fact that it is exactely the continued support of the US for Israel that has provided a focal point for hatred and made the rise of many of these islamist groups if not possible then surely a lot easier.

I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly sure that Israel wasn't one of OBL's original grievances, and that he was mainly interested in removing US troops from Saudi-Arabia. Israel came onto the scene for him later on, once he'd realised that there was a substantial body of western opinion that was critical of Israel.

Also, I suspect that Hamas & chums could be allowed to push Israel into the proverbial sea, in accordance with their objectives, and Islamist rage would not be reduced one bit. For Islamists, there are always things to complain about, and agreeing to their demands only increases the appetite. Israel understands this, which is why, in my view, the Palestinian leadership and neighbouring Arab states have to take their share of responsibility for the situation.

Summary: blaming Israel for Islamism is not the answer IMO.

[Cort Haus]

But that's the main goal of Christianity, as well. In fact, one difference between those two faiths is that only Islam accepts Christians, Jews, and (to varying extents) even Hindus, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists as 'people of the book' who are permitted to practice their own faiths. Christianity leaves no room for anyone who doesn't accept Christ. I am, of course, referring to primarily the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam. I can not speak on Shiites and the more backwards interpretations of Sunnah.

Are you suggesting that Islamic countries have greater religious freedom that Christian ones?