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So why exactly is Israeli slaughtering protesters?

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  • I want HC to seriously read this. Or at least the bolded parts.



    Israel Charged With Systematic Harassment of U.S. Marines By Donald Neff MARCH 1995, Pages 79-81 It was 12 years ago, on March 14, 1983, that the commandant of the Marine Corps sent a highly unusual letter to the secretary of defense expressing frustration and anger at Israel. General R.H. Barrow charged that Israeli troops were deliberately threatening the lives of Marines serving as peacekeepers in Lebanon. There was, he wrote, a systematic pattern of harassment by Israel Defense


    Israel Charged With Systematic Harassment of
    U.S. Marines

    By Donald Neff

    MARCH 1995, Pages 79-81

    It was 12 years ago, on March 14, 1983, that the commandant of the Marine Corps sent a highly unusual letter to the secretary of defense expressing frustration and anger at Israel. General R.H. Barrow charged that Israeli troops were deliberately threatening the lives of Marines serving as peacekeepers in Lebanon. There was, he wrote, a systematic pattern of harassment by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) that was resulting in "life-threatening situations, replete with verbal degradation of the officers, their uniform and country."

    Barrow's letter added: "It is inconceivable to me why Americans serving in peacekeeping roles must be harassed, endangered by an ally...It is evident to me, and the opinion of the U.S. commanders afloat and ashore, that the incidents between the Marines and the IDF are timed, orchestrated, and executed for obtuse Israeli political purposes."1

    Israel's motives were less obtuse than the diplomatic general pretended. It was widely believed then, and now, that Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, one of Israel's most Machiavellian politician-generals, was creating the incidents deliberately in an effort to convince Washington that the two forces had to coordinate their actions in order to avoid such tensions. This, of course, would have been taken by the Arabs as proof that the Marines were not really in Lebanon as neutral peacekeepers but as allies of the Israelis, a perception that would have obvious advantages for Israel.2

    Barrow's extraordinary letter was indicative of the frustrations and miseries the Marines suffered during their posting to Lebanon starting on Aug. 25, 1982, as a result of Israel's invasion 11 weeks earlier. Initially a U.S. unit of 800 men was sent to Beirut harbor as part of a multinational force to monitor the evacuation of PLO guerrillas from Beirut. The Marines, President Reagan announced, "in no case... would stay longer than 30 days."3 This turned out to be only partly true. They did withdraw on Sept. 10, but a reinforced unit of 1,200 was rushed back 15 days later after the massacres at the Palestinian refugee camps at Sabra and Shatila that accompanied the Israeli seizure of West Beirut. The U.S. forces remained until Feb. 26, 1984.4

    During their-year-and-a-half posting in Lebanon, the Marines suffered 268 killed.5 The casualties started within a week of the return of the Marines in September 1982. On the 30th, a U.S.-made cluster bomb left behind by the Israelis exploded, killing Corporal David Reagan and wounding three other Marines.6

    Corporal Reagan's death represented the dangers of the new mission of the Marines in Lebanon. While their first brief stay had been to separate Israeli forces from Palestinian fighters evacuating West Beirut, their new mission was as part of a multinational force sent to prevent Israeli troops from attacking the Palestinian civilians left defenseless there after the withdrawal of PLO forces. As President Reagan said: "For this multinational force to succeed, it is essential that Israel withdraw from Beirut."7

    Israel's siege of Beirut during the summer of 1982 had been brutal and bloody, reaching a peak of horror on Aug. 12, quickly known as Black Thursday. On that day, Sharon's forces launched at dawn a massive artillery barrage that lasted for 11 straight hours and was accompanied by saturation air bombardment.8 As many as 500 persons, mainly Lebanese and Palestinian civilians, were killed.9

    On top of the bombardment came the massacres the next month at Sabra and Shatila, where Sharon's troops allowed Lebanese Maronite killers to enter the camps filled with defenseless civilians. The massacres sickened the international community and pressure from Western capitals finally forced Israel to withdraw from Beirut in late September. Troops from Britain, France, Italy and the United States were interposed between the Israeli army and Beirut, with U.S. Marines deployed in the most sensitive area south of Beirut at the International Airport, directly between Israeli troops and West Beirut.

    It was at the airport that the Marines would suffer their Calvary over the next year. Starting in January 1983, small Israeli units began probing the Marine lines. At first the effort appeared aimed at discovering the extent of Marine determination to resist penetration. The lines proved solid and the Marines' determination strong. Israeli troops were politely but firmly turned away. Soon the incidents escalated, with both sides pointing loaded weapons at each other but no firing taking place. Tensions were high enough by late January that a special meeting between U.S. and Israeli officers was held in Beirut to try to agree on precise boundaries beyond which the IDF would not penetrate.10

    No Stranger to the Marines

    However, on Feb. 2 a unit of three Israeli tanks, led by Israeli Lt. Col. Rafi Landsberg, tried to pass through Marine/Lebanese Army lines at Rayan University Library in south Lebanon. By this time, Landsberg was no stranger to the Marines. Since the beginning of January he had been leading small Israeli units in probes against the Marine lines, although such units would normally have a commander no higher than a sergeant or lieutenant. The suspicion grew that Sharon's troops were deliberately provoking the Marines and Landsberg was there to see that things did not get out of hand. The Israeli tactics were aimed more at forcing a joint U.S.-Israeli strategy than merely probing lines.

    In the Feb. 2 incident, the checkpoint was commanded by Marine Capt. Charles Johnson, who firmly refused permission for Landsberg to advance. When two of the Israeli tanks ignored his warning to halt, Johnson leaped on Landsberg's tank with pistol drawn and demanded Landsberg and his tanks withdraw. They did.11

    Landsberg and the Israeli embassy in Washington tried to laugh off the incident, implying that Johnson was a trigger-happy John Wayne type and that the media were exaggerating a routine event. Landsberg even went so far as to claim that he smelled alcohol on Johnson's breath and that drunkenness must have clouded his reason. Marines were infuriated because Johnson was well known as a teetotaler. Americans flocked to Johnson's side. He received hundreds of letters from school children, former Marines and from Commandant Barrow.12 It was a losing battle for the Israelis and Landsberg soon dropped from sight.

    But the incidents did not stop. These now included "helicopter harassment," by which U.S.-made helicopters with glaring spotlights were flown by the Israelis over Marine positions at night, illuminating Marine outposts and exposing them to potential attack. As reports of these incidents piled up, Gen. Barrow received a letter on March 12 from a U.S. Army major stationed in Lebanon with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO). The letter described a systematic pattern of Israeli attacks and provocations against UNTSO troops, including instances in which U.S. officers were singled out for "near-miss" shootings, abuse and detention.13 That same day two Marine patrols were challenged and cursed by Israeli soldiers.14

    Two days later Barrow wrote his letter to Secretary of Defense Caspar W. Weinberger, who endorsed it and sent it along to the State Department. High-level meetings were arranged and the incidents abated, perhaps largely because by this time Ariel Sharon had been fired as defense minister. He had been found by an Israeli commission to have had "personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatila massacres.15
    "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
    "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
      Oh yeah, then there's Alby's whole thing about Israel not giving a **** about civilian casualties. Pull the other one. On the contrary, Israel's astonishingly careful to avoid civilian casualties.
      You realize the context of this thread, right?

      You're so brainwashed it's actually pretty hilarious.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

      Comment


      • Israel's astonishingly careful to avoid civilian casualties
        "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

        "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Asher View Post
          You realize the context of this thread, right?

          You're so brainwashed it's actually pretty hilarious.
          That's why I want to see how he responds to the IDF having had a demonstrated history of ****ing with US troops, putting the lives of American troops at risk, etc.. Does his loyalty to Israel trump his loyalty to the US?

          In Lebanon, there were many incidents of US and IDF troops pointing weapons at each other. The stories of "helicopter harassment" are so beyond the pale for a supposed US-ally, it's disgusting.
          "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
          "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

          Comment


          • this topic is just so impossible. go left, you're brainwashed. go right, you're an anti-semite.

            Comment


            • ah, it was re-opened

              cool

              Comment


              • Anyone who seriously claims that "Israel's astonishingly careful to avoid civilian casualties" is brainwashed. No question.
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment


                • An interesting editorial on the issue appears in the Jerusalem Post today.
                  THE IDF’S response to Sunday's "Naksa" border protests could not have been much more seriously planned or more cool-headedly implemented.


                  News reports – even unconfirmed and dubious ones – that IDF soldiers had opened fire on unarmed Syrian- Palestinian and killed more than 20 of them would normally be likely to arouse the ire of innumerable countries across the globe.

                  ...

                  THE IDF’S response Sunday could not have been much more seriously planned or more cool-headedly implemented. Unlike May 15’s “Nakba Day” incidents, when a small contingent of soldiers lacking proper crowd control devices were taken by surprise and overrun, resulting in over 100 Palestinian breaching the border, this time the IDF was ready. Ample forces were concentrated near Majdal Shams and Kuneitra and supplied with tear gas, stun grenades and rubber bullets. The border fence had been reinforced, trenches dug, minefields checked and remarked. Numerous high-ranking officers were at the scene to provide soldiers with a sense of security and to react quickly to changes on the ground.

                  Soldiers followed clear rules of engagement: In the first stage of confrontation, potential infiltrators were warned in Arabic with megaphones not to approach the border; if they were not deterred, nonlethal riot dispersal means like tear gas were used; if they continued to approach, warning shots were fired in the air. Soldiers were permitted to aim fire directly at the infiltrators, and only then below the waist, when they actually reached the fence, but not before.

                  Syrian television, broadcasting with rare openness from the front, claimed over 20 of its citizens were killed by the IDF. This, of course, is the same news outlet, controlled by Bashar Ashad’s ruthlessly violent regime, that entirely failed to report that, on the very same day that Palestinians violently commemorated Israel’s successful defense of its borders against the attack of the combined armies of four Arab countries in the June 1967 Six Day War, over 30 peaceful Syrian demonstrators calling for Assad’s ouster had been gunned down by military forces in the north of the country. Previous Assad atrocities have been just as diligently unreported.

                  More reliable are IDF reports, issued after an investigation, which found that relatively few live rounds had been fired, that the death toll was likely far lower, and that a number of rioters had been killed when Molotov cocktails that they, the protesters, had been throwing set off an antitank minefield near Kuneitra.

                  ...
                  "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

                  Comment


                  • In what way is that interesting? An Israeli paper defending the actions?

                    They had ****ing stun grenades, tear gas, and rubber bullets. NO live rounds had to be used. Period.

                    I doubt this was even an order from the top. I bet some trigger-happy Israeli soldiers went nuts. It's not like they're the cream of the crop -- ****ing everyone becomes one.
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                    Comment


                    • Asher once again demonstrates his remarkable ignorance. Israeli papers are often more critical of Israel than western newspapers. Haaretz seems to usually be deeply critical of the israeli government.
                      If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                      ){ :|:& };:

                      Comment


                      • What would you expect from a people who have been killed just because they are Jewish.

                        I am amused at the Canadian left for allowing people of other countries to come and abuse there system of free health care, call them names and want to take over there country. But the left Canadians will protest and defend there rights
                        to **** on them and there country.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                          Asher once again demonstrates his remarkable ignorance. Israeli papers are often more critical of Israel than western newspapers.


                          If that article is more critical of Israel than western papers, you need to get real...
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Docfeelgood View Post
                            What would you expect from a people who have been killed just because they are Jewish.
                            This is more about land claims and revenge than anything else now. Only a fool keep coming back to the "they hate us because we're Jewish" tripe.

                            Americans think people hate them because they're "free", and they use that as an excuse to wage war all over the world.
                            Israelis insists everyone is attacking them because they're Jewish.

                            It's a vicious cycle of revenge and occupation. Nothing more, nothing less.
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Asher View Post


                              If that article is more critical of Israel than western papers, you need to get real...
                              I wasn't talking about the individual article, ********. I was trying to get your thick skull to understand that saying an Israeli newspaper will "of course defend israel" is like saying an American newspaper will "of course defend America"--ridiculous and untrue. You were trying to write it off as irrelevant because the author is Israeli, which is an absurd thing to do. Jpost isn't Press TV or Xinhua.
                              If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                              ){ :|:& };:

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                                I wasn't talking about the individual article, ********.
                                Tell me, HC. Which "western papers" do you read regularly to make that judgment?

                                Evidently by "western" you do not mean Canadian or European papers. You probably mean the WaPo...
                                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                                Comment

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