Why do 90% of black people vote for Democrats?

[Elok]

The fact that Nidalwotsit was on government payroll is irrelevant, as the government was pretty plainly not paying him to spout his crazy rubbish, nor to shoot up its base. I didn't mean to imply that McVeigh was Catholic--I haven't the foggiest idea what he believed in, but presumptively he believed in something and we didn't go crazy threatening about that something taking over our society after his little stunt. I'm not going to go dig up an example of a Catholic mass-murderer because, even if I do find one, you'll simply argue that s/he wasn't 'really' Catholic, while Nidal was obviously a true Muslim in your never-been-a-Muslim opinion. The point is, you're arguing that a lone nut and a small advocacy group with questionable ties to Hamas represent a creeping threat of Islamic law to our country of several hundred million people. Do you have anything else?

EDIT: Ironically, it seems McVeigh was a lapsed Catholic of some sort, and actually received Last Rites before his execution: http://articles.cnn.com/2001-06-11/j...rney?_s=PM:LAW

Not that I'd call him really Catholic, I just thought it was a funny coincidence.

[Ben Kenobi]

He's dead, first of all. And second of all, he was a veteran

Yes, but he wasn't in active duty. There's a big difference between someone who chooses to engage in these activities, and between someone who's engaging in the activities WHILE GETTING PAID by the federal government as a military counselor. Someone will lose their heads over that, there's no way he should have continued to work for the military.

The fact that Nidalwotsit was on government payroll is irrelevant, as the government was pretty plainly not paying him to spout his crazy rubbish

Effectively, they were because he had numerous prior incidents and never was disciplined for them. His supervisors didn't do their job to kick him out when he started doing this nonsense.

I didn't mean to imply that McVeigh was Catholic

Your argument is essentially equivocating on the differences between Catholics and Muslims. Nidal Hasan was and is a practicing muslim. McVeigh was not. Hasan claimed to be acting in accordance to the principles of Islam, McVeigh was not.

This is my point. Hasan is not the first Islamist nor will he be the last islamic terrorist in America. The reason you don't see Catholic terrorists is because the religion is a peaceful one, unlike Islam. Islam preaches hate and subjugation of everyone who is not Islamic and does not refrain from using violence from achieving their means.

you'll simply argue that s/he wasn't 'really' Catholic,

You haven't found a practicing Catholic yet. So I rest my case. Until you do, your argument is completely invalid, and there's a good reason to treat Islam differently, because it's members have an odd tendency to practice terrorism against people that they hate.

The point is, you're arguing that a lone nut

He wasn't a lone nut. That's the point. He's not the only one who was engaged in preaching hate against America in the ranks of the military either. He had connections with other Islamic terrorist groups.

[Elok]

Do I have to dig up a Catholic abortion-clinic gunner/bomber, only to have you say, "Well he's not really Catholic because Catholics are peaceful and he wasn't peaceful so he can't be Catholic and you haven't shown me a violent Catholic so I win because Catholics are peaceful"? Because I already know that's what you would/will do.

With that aside, almost no American citizens, out of several million Muslims, have turned to actual violence against America. Not "preaching hate," which is ambiguous and generally protected under the First Amendment anyway, but actually doing something about it. Statistically, they are simply not a significant threat as a group. The percentage of American Muslims who have attempted or committed acts of terrorism is smaller than the percentage of, say, Catholic priests who have molested children. Or, for that matter, of Baha'i who have sold drugs, or of Mormons who have trafficked in slaves, or of Zoroastrians who have abused their spouses. See, I don't even know what those last three statistics are, but I can still pretty much guarantee that they are correct because terrorism in the US is an incredibly rare event and it would seem that 99.99% of Muslims do not think the Koran says what you think it says. If you disagree with them, go yell at them for not being terrorists the way you think they should be.

[Elok]

You know what, fine. Eric Robert Rudolph and James Charles Kopp were both Catholic terrorists I found after a quick search on Wiki. I could probably dig up more but the wife wants to sleep.

[Tupac Shakur]

Tell your wife that someone is wrong on the Internet. I'm sure she'll understand.

[Lorizael]

The reason you don't see Catholic terrorists is because the religion is a peaceful one...

[Ben Kenobi]

Do I have to dig up a Catholic abortion-clinic gunner/bomber, only to have you say, "Well he's not really Catholic because Catholics are peaceful and he wasn't peaceful so he can't be Catholic and you haven't shown me a violent Catholic so I win because Catholics are peaceful"? Because I already know that's what you would/will do.

Try me.

With that aside, almost no American citizens, out of several million Muslims, have turned to actual violence against America.

Yeah, but as you said, only 1 percent of Americans are Muslim. So we should expect to see 1 percent of all actual terrorist attacks to be committed by muslims.

Not "preaching hate," which is ambiguous and generally protected under the First Amendment

Death threats are protected speech?

Statistically, they are simply not a significant threat as a group.

Statistically, they are the most likely subset of America to participate in terrorism.

The percentage of American Muslims who have attempted or committed acts of terrorism is smaller than the percentage of, say, Catholic priests who have molested children.

So moving the goalposts again. We're comparing terrorism to terrorism. Not Child sexual abuse to child sexual abuse. If we are talking child sexual abuse, let's look at rape and clitorectomies and sexual slavery.

it would seem that 99.99% of Muslims do not think the Koran says what you think it says.

Why I believe that the Koran says is irrelevant. That Nidal Hasan believes that the Koran is telling him to kill infidels, is relevant.

If you disagree with them, go yell at them for not being terrorists the way you think they should be.

I'm not the one who refuses to admit the truth that Muslims, by and large, are responsible for terrorism in America far out of proportion to their actual numbers. This is a problem.

[giblets]

Spoiler:

Domestic terrorism in the United States

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Domestic terrorism in the United States between 1980 and 2000 consisted of 250 of the 335 incidents confirmed as or suspected to be terrorist acts by the FBI. These 250 attacks are considered domestic by the FBI because they were carried out by U.S. citizens.^[1]
[edit] Definitions of domestic terrorism

The statutory definition of domestic terrorism in the United States has changed many times over the years; also, it can be argued that acts of domestic terrorism have been occurring since long before any legal definition was set forth.
According to a memo produced by the FBI's Terrorist Research and Analytical Center in 1994, domestic terrorism was defined as "the unlawful use of force or violence, committed by a group(s) of two or more individuals, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."^[2]
Under current United States law, set forth in the USA PATRIOT Act, acts of domestic terrorism are those which: "(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States."^[3]
[edit] Terrorist organizations

[edit] Animal Liberation Front

Main article: Animal Liberation Front
Animal Liberation Front (ALF) is a name used internationally by activists who engage in direct action tactics on behalf of animals. This includes removing animals from laboratories and fur farms, and sabotaging facilities involved in animal testing and other animal-based industries. According to ALF statements, any act that furthers the cause of animal liberation, where all reasonable precautions are taken not to endanger life, may be claimed as an ALF action. The group is listed by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security as a domestic terrorist organization.
[edit] Alpha 66 and Omega 7

Alpha 66 (still existent) and Omega 7 (now defunct) were two affiliated Cuban exile action groups who have carried out many bombings and acts of sabotage. While many of these attacks have historically been directed at Cuba and the Castro government, many of them occurred domestically, especially during the period of Cuba-US diplomacy and negotiations in the 1970s known as "el Diálogo" (the dialogue) when powerful anti-Castro figures in Miami attempted to terrorize those in their community who favored a more moderate approach. Luciano Nieves, for instance, was killed for advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba. WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian lost his legs in a car bomb after he publicly condemned Cuban exile violence. These cases of terrorism were documented extensively in the book Miami by Joan Didion. Human Rights Watch released a report in 1992 in which they claimed that the more extreme exiles have created a political environment in Miami where "moderation can be a dangerous position."
[edit] Army of God

Main article: Army of God (USA)
The Army of God (AOG)^[4] is a loose network of individuals and groups connected by ideological affinity and the determination to use force to end abortion in the United States. Acts of anti-abortion violence increased in the mid-1990s culminating in a series of bombings by Eric Robert Rudolph, whose targets included two abortion clinics, a gay and lesbian night club, and the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. Letters sent to newspapers claim responsibility for the bombing of the abortion clinics in the name of the Army of God.
[edit] Aryan Nations

Main article: Aryan Nations
Aryan Nations (AN) is a white nationalist neo-Nazi organization founded in the 1970s by Richard Girnt Butler as an arm of the Christian Identity group known as the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian. As of December 2007 there were two main factions that claimed descent from Butler's group. The Aryan Nations has been called a "terrorist threat" by the FBI,^[5] and the RAND Corporation has called it the "first truly nationwide terrorist network" in the USA.^[6]
[edit] Black Liberation Army

Main article: Black Liberation Army
A splinter group made up of the more radical members of the Black Panther Party, the Black Liberation Army (BLA) sought to overthrow the US government in the name of racial separatism and Marxist ideals. The Fraternal Order of Police blames the BLA for the murders of 13 police officers. According to a Justice Department report on BLA activity, the group was suspected of involvement in over 60 incidents of violence between 1970 and 1980.
[edit] The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord

Main article: The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord
The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA) was a radical Christian Identity organization formed in 1971 in the small community of Elijah in southern Missouri, United States.
[edit] Earth Liberation Front

Main article: Earth Liberation Front
The Earth Liberation Front has been classified as a top "domestic terror" threat in the United States by the Federal Bureau of Investigation since March 2001. ^[7]
[edit] Jewish Defense League

Main article: Jewish Defense League
The Jewish Defense League (JDL) was founded in 1969 by Rabbi Meir Kahane in New York City, with its declared purpose the protection of Jews from harassment and antisemitism.^[8] FBI statistics show that, from 1980 to 1985, 15 terrorist attacks were attempted in the U.S. by JDL members.^[9] The FBI’s Mary Doran described the JDL in 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group".^[10] The National Consortium for the Study of Terror and Responses to Terrorism states that, during the JDL's first two decades of activity, it was an "active terrorist organization."^[8][11] Kahane later founded the far right Israeli political party Kach. The JDL's website currently condemns all forms of terrorism.^[12]
[edit] Ku Klux Klan

Main article: Ku Klux Klan
From reconstruction at the end of the civil war to the end of the civil rights movement, the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) used threats, violence, arson, and murder to further its white-supremacist, anti-Communist, anti-semitic and anti-Catholic agenda. Domestic terrorists with agendas similar to the KKK include neo-Nazis and white power skinheads.
[edit] May 19th Communist Organization

Main article: May 19th Communist Organization
The May 19 Coalition (also variously referred to as the May 19 Communist Coalition, May 19 Communist Organization, and various alternatives of M19CO), was a US-based, self-described revolutionary organization formed by members of the Weather Underground Organization. The group was originally known as the New York chapter of the Prairie Fire Organizing Committee (PFOC), an organization devoted to legally promoting the causes of the Weather Underground. This was part of Prairie Fire Manifesto change in Weather Underground Organization strategy, which demanded both aboveground mass and clandestine organizations. The role of the clandestine organization would be to build the "consciousness of action" and prepare the way for the development of a people's militia. Concurrently, the role of the mass movement (i.e., above ground Prairie Fire Collective) would include support for, and encouragement of, armed action. Such an alliance would, according to Weather, "help create the 'sea' for the guerrillas to swim in." ^[13]
[edit] The Order

Main article: The Order (group)
The Order, also known as the Brüder Schweigen or Silent Brotherhood, was an organization active in the United States between 1983 and 1984. The Order, a white nationalist revolutionary group, is probably best known for the 1984 murder of radio talk show host Alan Berg.
[edit] Phineas Priesthood

Main article: Phineas Priesthood
The Phineas Priesthood (Phineas Priests) is a Christian Identity movement that opposes interracial intercourse, the mixing of races, homosexuality, and abortion. It is also marked by its anti-Semitism, anti-multiculturalism, and opposition to taxation. It is not considered an organization because it is not led by a governing body, there are no gatherings, and there is no membership process. One becomes a Phineas Priest by simply adopting the beliefs of the Priesthood and acting upon those beliefs. Members of the Priesthood are often called terrorists for, among other things, planning to blow up FBI buildings, abortion clinic bombings, and bank robberies.^{[citation needed]}
[edit] Symbionese Liberation Army

Main article: Symbionese Liberation Army
The Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) was an American self-styled, far left "urban guerrilla warfare group" that considered itself a revolutionary vanguard army. The group committed bank robberies, two murders, and other acts of violence between 1973 and 1975. Among their most notorious acts was the kidnapping and the brainwashing of the newspaper heiress Patty Hearst.
[edit] United Freedom Front

Main article: United Freedom Front
The United Freedom Front (UFF) was a small American Marxist organization active in the 1970s and 1980s. It was originally called the Sam Melville/Jonathan Jackson Unit, and its members became known as the Ohio 7 when they were brought to trial. Between 1975 and 1984 the UFF carried out at least 20 bombings and nine bank robberies in the northeastern United States, targeting corporate buildings, courthouses, and military facilities.^[14] Brent L. Smith describes them as "undoubtedly the most successful of the leftist terrorists of the 1970s and 1980s."^[15] The group's members were eventually apprehended and convicted of conspiracy, murder, attempted murder, and other charges. Two, Tom Manning and Jaan Laaman, remain incarcerated today.
[edit] Weathermen

Main article: Weather Underground Organization
The Weather Underground Organization was a far left organization active from 1969 to 1975. It originated in 1969 as a faction of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS)^[16] composed for the most part of the national office leadership of SDS and their supporters. The group collapsed shortly after the U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam in 1975.
[edit] Notable attacks associated with domestic terrorism

[edit] Bombing of Los Angeles Times building

Main article: Los Angeles Times bombing
The bombing of the Los Angeles Times on October 1, 1910 killed 21 people.^[17] The perpetrators of this crime were the McNamara brothers (James and John McNamara), two Irish-American brothers who wanted to unionize the paper. The McNamaras became a cause célèbre amongst the labor movement in the United States, though their support eroded when they admitted their guilt.
[edit] Wall Street bombing

Main article: Wall Street bombing
The Wall Street bombing was a terrorist incident that occurred on September 16, 1920, in the Financial District of New York City. A horse-drawn wagon filled with 100 pounds (45 kg) of dynamite was stationed across the street from the headquarters of the J.P. Morgan Inc. bank. The explosion killed 38 and injured 400. Even though no one was found guilty, it is believed that the act was carried out by followers of Luigi Galleani.
[edit] Bath, Michigan Bombings

Main article: Bath School disaster
On May 18, 1927, in Bath, Michigan, a radicalist school board member named Andrew Kehoe—angry at local taxes that caused his farm to foreclose, and other government policies—set off three bombs and killed forty-five people, including thirty-eight students and seven adults.
[edit] Unabomber attacks

Main article: Theodore Kaczynski
From 1978 to 1995, Harvard University graduate and former mathematics professor Theodore "Ted" Kaczynski - known by the codename "UNABOM" until his identification and arrest by the FBI - carried out a campaign of sending letterbombs to academics and various individuals particularly associated with modern technology. In 1996, his manifesto was published in The New York Times and the Washington Post, under the threat of more attacks. The bomb campaign ended with his capture.
[edit] Attacks by the Jewish Defense League

Main article: Terrorism by the Jewish Defense League
In 2004 congressional testimony, John S. Pistole, Executive Assistant Director for Counterterrorism and Counterintelligence for the Federal Bureau of Investigation described the JDL as "a known violent extremist Jewish Organization."^[18] FBI statistics show that, from 1980 through 1985, there were 18 terrorist attacks in the U.S. committed by Jews; 15 of those by members of the JDL.[13] Mary Doran, an FBI agent, described the JDL in a 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group". Most recently, then-JDL Chairman Irv Rubin was jailed while awaiting trial on charges of conspiracy in planning bomb attacks against the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City, California, and on the office of Arab-American Congressman Darrell Issa.
[edit] Oklahoma City bombing

Main article: Oklahoma City bombing
This truck bomb attack by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people on April 19, 1995 – the deadliest domestic-based terrorist attack in US history and, before the September 11, 2001 attacks, the deadliest act of terrorism in US history. It inspired improvements to United States federal building security.
[edit] Centennial Olympic Park bombing

Main article: Centennial Olympic Park bombing
The Centennial Olympic Park bombing was a terrorist bombing on July 27, 1996 in Atlanta, Georgia, United States during the 1996 Summer Olympics, the first of four committed by Eric Robert Rudolph, former explosives expert for the United States Army. Two people died, and 111 were injured.
[edit] 2001 anthrax attacks

Main article: 2001 anthrax attacks
The 2001 anthrax attacks in the United States occurred over the course of several weeks beginning on September 18, 2001. Letters containing anthrax spores were mailed to several news media offices and two Democratic U.S. Senators, killing five people and infecting 17 others. In mid-2008, the FBI narrowed its focus to Bruce Edwards Ivins, a scientist who worked at the government's biodefense labs at Fort Detrick in Frederick, Maryland. Ivins was told of the impending prosecution and on July 29 committed suicide, by an overdose of acetaminophen.
[edit] Murder of George Tiller

Main article: Assassination of George Tiller
On May 31, 2009, George Tiller, a physician from Wichita, Kansas who was nationally known for being one of the few doctors in the United States to perform late-term abortions, was shot and killed by Scott Roeder, an anti-abortion activist. Tiller was killed during a Sunday morning service at his church, where he was serving as an usher. Multiple action groups and media figures have labeled Tiller's killing an act of domestic terrorism and an assassination.
Roeder was arrested within three hours of the shooting and charged with first-degree murder and related crimes two days later. In November 2009 Roeder publicly confessed to the killing, telling the Associated Press that he had shot Tiller because "preborn children's lives were in imminent danger." Roeder was found guilty of first-degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault on January 29, 2010, and sentenced to life without parole for 50 years on April 1, 2010.
[edit] Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting

Main article: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting
An elderly man with believed ties to neo-Nazi groups opened fire on June 10, 2009 at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, killing one guard. James W. Von Brunn, 88, from Maryland, reportedly entered the museum shortly before 1 p.m. EDT, took out what appeared to be a rifle and fired at a security guard. Two other security guards returned fire, striking the shooter, according to reports. Von Brunn died on January 6, 2010, while awaiting trial.
[edit] Fort Hood Shooting

Main article: Fort Hood shooting
The Fort Hood shooting was a mass shooting that took place on November 5, 2009, at Fort Hood—the most populous US military installation in the world, located just outside Killeen, Texas—in which a gunman killed 13 people and wounded 30 others.
The sole suspect is Nidal Malik Hasan, a U.S. Army major serving as a psychiatrist. He was shot by Department of the Army Civilian Police officers, and is now paralyzed from the chest down. Hasan has been charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 counts of attempted murder under the Uniform Code of Military Justice; he may face additional charges at court-martial.
[edit] Austin IRS attack

Main article: 2010 Austin plane crash
On February 18, 2010, Andrew Joseph Stack III flew his airplane into the IRS building in Austin, TX killing one other person and injuring many more in an act of lone wolf terrorism. He cited many reasons for his grievance against the government of the United States as well as other facets of the country such as bailout of financial institutions, politicians in general, conglomerate companies of General Motors, Enron and Arthur Andersen, labor unions, drug and health care insurance companies, and the Catholic Church. He added a meeting with a poor widow who never got pension benefits she was promised, the effect of the Tax Reform Act of 1986 on engineers, the September 11 attacks airline bailouts that only benefited the airlines but not the suffering engineers, how a Certified Public Accountant he hired seemed to side with the government to take extra tax money from him, criticism of the FAA and the George W. Bush administration were reasons for him to call for violent revolt.
[edit] See also

• Terrorism in the United States
• Anti-abortion violence in the United States
• List of incidents of political violence in Washington, D.C.
• Resistance Conspiracy case

[edit] References

• ^ Militant Extremists in the United States - Council on Foreign Relations
• ^ Rise of Domestic Terrorism and Its Relation to United States Armed Forces
• ^ http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ubl056.107.pdf
• ^ http://www.armyofgod.com/
• ^ "Threat of Terrorism to the United States" Testimony of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI, May 10, 2001
• ^ Terrorism Knowledge Base
• ^ http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/pu...rism-2000-2001
• ^ ^{a b} Anti-Defamation League on JDL
• ^ Bohn, Michael K. (2004). The Achille Lauro Hijacking: Lessons in the Politics and Prejudice of Terrorism. Brassey's Inc.. pp. 67. ISBN 1574887793.
• ^ Federal Bureau of Investigation - Congressional Testimony
• ^ JDL group profile from National Consortium for the Study of Terror and Responses to Terrorism
• ^ http://www.jdl.org/index.php/ideolog...rrorism-racism
• ^ Jacobs, Ron (1997). The Way The Wind Blew: A History Of The Weather Underground. Verso. pp. 76–77. ISBN 1-85984-167-8. Retrieved December 28, 2009.
• ^ Smith, Brent L. (1994). Terrorism in America: pipe bombs and pipe dreams. SUNY Press. Pages 111-112
• ^ Smith, Brent L. (1994). Terrorism in America: pipe bombs and pipe dreams. SUNY Press. Page 110
• ^ Wakin, Daniel J., "Quieter Lives for 60's Militants, but Intensity of Beliefs Hasn't Faded", article The New York Times, August 24, 2003, retrieved June 7, 2008
• ^ New York Daily News, October 2005
• ^ http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress...tole041404.htm

[edit] Further reading

• Associated Press article on the findings of the American Association for the Advancement of Science panel on Domestic Terrorism^{[dead link]}
• NOW on PBS Are Some Anti-Abortion Attacks Domestic Terrorism?
• Terrorism & Public Safety Policing: Implications of the Obama Presidency. Pastor, James F. (2009). New York, NY: Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-4398-1580-9.

Wow, it really looks like domestic terrorism in the United States is a particularly muslim phenomenon :roll eyes:

[Ben Kenobi]

You know what, fine. Eric Robert Rudolph and James Charles Kopp were both Catholic terrorists I found after a quick search on Wiki. I could probably dig up more but the wife wants to sleep.

Ok. Rudolph killed 2 and injured 5. Kopp killed one.

How many did Nidal Hasan kill?

13 people and wounded 28.

So, on one side, we have two people who, in the last 25 years, who profess to be Catholic. Then we have Hasan, and all the 9-11 terrorists on the other.

Are you really arguing that there is no difference between the two? I think there are significant differences.

As for arguing that Kopp et al are not really Catholic, I would dispute that even if you were to argue that he was not. I'm well aware of the case, I've read his confession and the details of what happened quite some time ago. Kopp's argument is really simple. He believed that abortion is murder and that he had to do what it took to protect these children from someone who wanted to kill them.

I disagree with him, and I do not believe that his actions were in accord with what Christ or the Church teaches, and I believe that Kopp himself understands his need for forgiveness and reconciliation. Even Kopp does not justify his actions with his faith, as Hasan does. That is the difference between the two, and I hope you can see this for yourself.

[SlowwHand]

Generally speaking, anytime a violent act is done in the name of religion, the perpetrator is psychotic. Hasan fits that definition.

[Tupac Shakur]

Can someone please ban gribbler for that ****ing Wikipedia copy-paste?

[Hauldren Collider]

Ben should go to Belfast and start shouting that from a megaphone.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben should go to Belfast and start shouting that from a megaphone

Isn't that what the Orange Order does anyways?

[Hauldren Collider]

The Orange Order is unionist, so, no?

[Ben Kenobi]

They march through the Catholic neighbourhoods every year.

Interesting fact, Catholics are probably around 42 percent now in Northern Ireland. Union is pretty much inevitable at this point in time.