Nearly Half Of Detroiters illiterate.

[Docfeelgood]

Please post more hilarious pictures doc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how is this one?

[Docfeelgood]

One in 38 Kids in South Korea May Have Autism, Study Says

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/0...#ixzz1LsYVI2JZ
this is the tread as above

[Boris Godunov]

Felch's original statement that I've been attacked for not believing:



The idea that black people reject being able to read because it's "white" is a bit different from the idea that black teenagers just don't give a ****.

I was going to make this same point. By and large, black students fare about as well as their socio-economic white counterparts. HS graduation rates among poor whites aren't very good, either. There are numerous instances of largely black inner city schools being made to perform well by actually trying to educate them well. That's because the real overarching issue is that the chronically-underfunded inner city schools are ****holes with overcrowded classrooms and apathetic teachers that make a lot of students apathetic (at best) about being there. When one sees little reason to hope that graduating HS will substantially improve their lives, why should they bother? The notion that they don't strive to succeed because they view that as "white" is risible.

[Felch]

There are numerous instances of largely black inner city schools being made to perform well by actually trying to educate them well. That's because the real overarching issue is that the chronically-underfunded inner city schools are ****holes with overcrowded classrooms and apathetic teachers that make a lot of students apathetic (at best) about being there..

No, underfunded schools don't have anything to do with it. We spend above the OECD average and drag ass in testing. South Korea spends about half of what we spend per pupil, has way more overcrowding, and doesn't have issues with functional illiteracy. The real overarching issue is apathetic parents who don't take care of their kids. Those examples of inner city kids rising up through special schools are generally self-selecting populations. Ambitious kids with parents who give a damn try to get into the best charter schools. Those that don't give a **** wind up in the general school population. Korean parents give a ****, ghetto black parents don't. That's the issue. Everything else is just bull**** excuses.

What do you even mean about graduating High School not improving their lives? I agree that they're not learning a damn thing, but even having the piece of paper is beneficial.

[Hauldren Collider]

South Korea's education system is ****. Don't let those scores fool you otherwise. There's a reason TJHSST is full of Korean immigrants--their parents left South Korea because their kids get a better education in the US. Their education system is based on imitation, not innovation--learning by rote instead of thinking critically. It's great for playing catch up with countries like the USA but terrible once you get anywhere near our level of achievement.

[Felch]

They learn how to read instead of how to think, but at least they learn to read. Your peers didn't leave Korea for Detroit, they left for Fairfax. At our best, America kicks ass. At our worst, we can't even read.

[DaShi]

South Korea's education system is ****. Don't let those scores fool you otherwise. There's a reason TJHSST is full of Korean immigrants--their parents left South Korea because their kids get a better education in the US. Their education system is based on imitation, not innovation--learning by rote instead of thinking critically. It's great for playing catch up with countries like the USA but terrible once you get anywhere near our level of achievement.

Their college education is ****. But they work very hard in high school to get into the top US colleges where they develop the skills and connections to get the higher paying jobs. US high schools are now drugs, sex, and gun shootings (having replaced rock and roll in the late 90s).

[rah]

It all depends where the schools are. Yes most inner city High schools are all that you claim (there are exceptions) but most of the suburbs have top notch high schools. (at least in the Chicago suburbs) The percentages of graduates that succeed at the next level are quite high.

[Arrian]

HC said:

they've been given more than everyone in America except probably Native Americans

The NA's got ****ed, right in the ass, for a loooooooong time. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of US history knows this. Therefore, what HC actually said here was "Detroiters got ****ed over as bad as the NAs did."

As for the education discussion, I won't pretend to understand "black culture" (or "white culture" for that matter). I do recall, however, that in my nearly all white, very high-ranked highschool, plenty of rich white kids didn't give a ****. But they got through, went to college, etc. Perhaps their parents pushed them just enough. Maybe it was enough to simply be expected to graduate HS and go to college, because that's what ~99% of kids who grew up where I did do. It's not just about having or lacking money. Expectations and environment matter a great deal, IMO. We also have very little violence... a few fights.

We had some good teachers. We had some ****ty teachers who were just punching the clock (most noteably my physics teacher, thankfully). Some kids had parents who really cared and pushed their kids in school (for instance, mine). Others really didn't. Most of 'em when to college anyway, and probably ended up fairly wealthy, 'cause that's what kids who grew up where I grew up do.

So, if you want to fix education in Detroit, you've got a lot of work to do, and most of it has nothing to do with the teachers or their dastardly union HC hates so much.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

I went to a part white/part hispanic school in rural poor Oregon. A large fraction (on the order of 50%) were on food stamps or got free lunches (maybe it was close to 100%).

Some 40% graduated highschool after 4 years (if my memory serves). My current count is that three of my class (a smart class, based on standardized testing at various times) graduated college 4 years after highschool graduation (class size was on the order of 70).

At least for hispanics, there was the assumption (at least for women) that they would leave school and get married at ~16 and that they would be helping their family at ~14. A lot, both rural poor white and poor hispanic seemed to come from families were education wasn't very valued (one neighbor woman went to her daughters 8th grade graduation and cried because her baby made it so far).

I think that culture and social effects are very strong, and have a huge influence (including on those who just go to schools where such culture/social effects dominate). I don't think that the culture/social effects are necessarily racial. As I said, my school was mostly white and hispanic, and it was terrible.

I think the difference is that in a well off/highly ranked school the kids rebel to fail. In a poor school, the kids have to rebel (in a particular way, because there are ways to rebel and fail) to succeed.

JM

[Hauldren Collider]

Native Americans got ****ed for a long time, but they've been pampered with government assistance for upwards of 40 years now, and their condition remains downright third-world in places. If you think that this is because they haven't gotten enough assistance then you are simply blind to evidence.

What I said was that Detroiters get welfare assistance probably second only to Native Americans, and it hasn't helped them, either.

[Hauldren Collider]

Also what many people have observed is not so much that American schools are bad but that they are inconsistent. In most of Virginia, schools are pretty good (though Fairfax's schools are vastly superior to the schools in the rest of the state). Jon's school in Oregon evidently sucked. This does not imply that we need top-down universal school reform. I can tell you that in DC, where the schools are astonishingly ****ty, teacher's unions are quite clearly the thing holding achievement back. In just a few years Michelle Rhee managed to make measurable improvements in achievement by firing truckloads of bad teachers, implementing vouchers, and other school reform favorites to great effect. But they kicked her out because she pissed off the unions.

[Hauldren Collider]

Their college education is ****. But they work very hard in high school to get into the top US colleges where they develop the skills and connections to get the higher paying jobs. US high schools are now drugs, sex, and gun shootings (having replaced rock and roll in the late 90s).

Their grade school is crap, too. The education system from primary school to college is basically focused on rote memorization.

[Arrian]

I'm no expert on this, but I recently read that a lot of the "measureable improvement" under Rhee came down to cheating on the tests. Rhee was certainly the poster woman for the crusade against the teachers union, that I recall.

As for "40 years of welfare" for the NAs... I know next to nothing about federal assistance to NAs in the past 4 decades. I rather doubt, however, that it represents more than a fart in the wind in comparison to the harm done prior. Also, is there any trend that can be discerned? 40 years is about 2 generations.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Personally I think a problem in both the African American and Native American communities is that some feel that they have been so screwed by whites (especially in the past) that they want to not take part of the 'white economy'. This is a huge mistake, and ends with poverty.

Has nothing directly to do with welfare.

JM