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  • Flubber, I disagree. There are very few who follow the straight and narrow path like Ned and Stannis, to whom the next-in-line claim has actual meaning. For the others, who really don't know the truth, Stannis is what, third in line? If you're supporting a rebel in the Game of Thrones, then the one who has the most power has the "best claim," and that appeared to be Renly.
    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
    Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
    One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

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    • No, Flubber has a point. After all, these Lords assert their dominion because they were the eldest son. Imagine if they put into their families' heads that someone other than the eldest son can have a valid claim. Would be dangerous.
      I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • Originally posted by Flubber View Post
        Technically I think the only people that know for sure are Jamie and cersei with a large cast of people that suspect-- Joffrey himself may be ignorant of his true father.
        One notable thing about last night's episode is that both Jamie and Cersei came clean about their affair. Cersei admitted it to Tyrian and Jamie to Lady Stark and the 50 foot woman.
        Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

        When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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        • Originally posted by Lord Avalon View Post
          Flubber, I disagree. There are very few who follow the straight and narrow path like Ned and Stannis, to whom the next-in-line claim has actual meaning. For the others, who really don't know the truth, Stannis is what, third in line? If you're supporting a rebel in the Game of Thrones, then the one who has the most power has the "best claim," and that appeared to be Renly.
          It seems this was male line only so the apparent succession would be Joffrey, his brother and then Stannis, followed by Renly


          But the eldest stuff seems to be followed-- Sam Tarly was forced to take the black so he wouldn't be available to inherit--IT seems his dad couldn't just choose a younger son
          Croppled Bram rules as a lord despite his infirmity-- there is no thought that his able-bodied younger brother take over


          I realize if you rebel, you can ignore all the old stuff and say "I am king because I have the largest army"-- But here the "rebels" chose a guy that was 4th in line as it stood and 2nd in line on the argument that Joffry is a bastard Lannister. To me that remains an odd choice for rebels, particularly since it split the anti-Lannister forces
          You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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          • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
            No, Flubber has a point. After all, these Lords assert their dominion because they were the eldest son. Imagine if they put into their families' heads that someone other than the eldest son can have a valid claim. Would be dangerous.
            First of all, we're not really talking legitimate succession - few people know the truth, and the Lannisters certainly aren't going to go public and give up their support of Joffrey "Baratheon" and let Stannis take the throne. So it's a rebellion. And secondly, Robert Baratheon took the throne from the Targaryens, who took it from whoever had it before. So the idea is already out there that might trumps valid claim.
            Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
            Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
            One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

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            • Might does - but Robert was, of course, first in line of Storm's End. And he was (as is pointed out) the person who has the best claim to the Throne of all the Targaryens just died (the Baratheon boys' grandmother was a Targaryen). There is a pecking order and even in rebellion they have to be cognizant of that.

              Now there is the idea I guess that the Tyrells and Baratheon banner men didn't know Stannis was going to be rebelling as well. They were already committed to Renly so what else could they do? Also, I guess a bunch of them were Renly's bannermen as Renly was given Storm's End and so would declare for him as soon as he said he was rebelling. Stannis comes later and it's kind of like... ooops.
              I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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              • Plus if the lineage is irrelevent, why was the king and small counsel so worried about a Targaryan being pregnant over in Dothraki lands. It seems obvious that lineage matters to most

                Imran-- you explanation makes more sense than most -- Renly rises up perhaps when Stannis is still seen as being with Joffry-- with his army raised and loyal to him, he doesn't feel like just handing them over to his brother


                Oh and the lineage issue can hardly be a secret now-- Wasn't it Stannis that sent a raven to every lord proclaiming the tale and hell-- even the common folk of Kings Landing refer to it from time to time
                You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                • Originally posted by Flubber View Post
                  But the eldest stuff seems to be followed-- Sam Tarly was forced to take the black so he wouldn't be available to inherit--IT seems his dad couldn't just choose a younger son
                  Croppled Bram rules as a lord despite his infirmity-- there is no thought that his able-bodied younger brother take over
                  It's followed for families. I think thrones are different.

                  Bran is Prince of Winterfell, but is more of a figurehead than actually ruling, as his elder brother is Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. But he's old enough to do that duty, while Rickon is too young. When they become of age, if Bran were to become Lord of Winterfell, I wonder how many of the Stark bannermen would follow him. I suppose it would depend on Rickon, who would be a knight and perhaps eventual commander in the field. How many followers would Bran have if Rickon decided to take over?

                  As far as Sam Tarly, his father is choosing another heir while he's still alive to make that choice.

                  I realize if you rebel, you can ignore all the old stuff and say "I am king because I have the largest army"-- But here the "rebels" chose a guy that was 4th in line as it stood and 2nd in line on the argument that Joffry is a bastard Lannister. To me that remains an odd choice for rebels, particularly since it split the anti-Lannister forces
                  I don't know how many people believe Stannis' claim of Joffrey's illegitimacy. So IMO they're going with who seems to have the best chance to win the throne.
                  Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
                  Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
                  One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
                    Might does - but Robert was, of course, first in line of Storm's End. And he was (as is pointed out) the person who has the best claim to the Throne of all the Targaryens just died (the Baratheon boys' grandmother was a Targaryen). There is a pecking order and even in rebellion they have to be cognizant of that.

                    Now there is the idea I guess that the Tyrells and Baratheon banner men didn't know Stannis was going to be rebelling as well. They were already committed to Renly so what else could they do? Also, I guess a bunch of them were Renly's bannermen as Renly was given Storm's End and so would declare for him as soon as he said he was rebelling. Stannis comes later and it's kind of like... ooops.
                    Well, if legitimate claims mean so much, then most of Renly's followers should have gone over to Stannis as soon as he declared himself king, right? But no one switched until Renly died.
                    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
                    Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
                    One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Flubber View Post
                      Plus if the lineage is irrelevent, why was the king and small counsel so worried about a Targaryan being pregnant over in Dothraki lands. It seems obvious that lineage matters to most

                      Imran-- you explanation makes more sense than most -- Renly rises up perhaps when Stannis is still seen as being with Joffry-- with his army raised and loyal to him, he doesn't feel like just handing them over to his brother


                      Oh and the lineage issue can hardly be a secret now-- Wasn't it Stannis that sent a raven to every lord proclaiming the tale and hell-- even the common folk of Kings Landing refer to it from time to time
                      Well, it was Robert who was obsessed with wiping out the Targaryens. I don't know that the small council would have done anything (other than Littlefinger and Varys keeping tabs on them) without royal authorization for assassination.

                      Yes, Stannis sent out ravens everywhere, but who believes his "story"? Didn't the Lannisters put out word that he's making **** up?
                      Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
                      Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
                      One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

                      Comment


                      • Well if might is so much then why don't they all just declare for the Knight of Flowers??

                        He is a renowned fighter and House Tyrell has been stated to have the 3rd largest army after the Lannisters and Starks. To flip your argument, why wouldn't they they choose Stark or Lannister or Tyrell--
                        Thats what troubles me about the whole thing if you are saying the lineage doesn't matter. If you are rejecting Stannis why doesn't he stay rejected?

                        Although we are of course missing the simplest explanation-- the Knight of Flowers was in love with Renly and supported his partner/lover bringing all the armies and bannermen of House Tyrell with them-- All those bannermen followed their Leige lords (the Tyrells) and Renly had his own bannermen that followed him directly.

                        With Renly's death, the Tyrell armies went home following the grieving lover and widowed queen and everyone else switched to Stannis. logical -- just follow the leige lords--
                        You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                        • Well, I guess you could say lineage matters, until it doesn't. And did Ser Loras, who happens to be the youngest Tyrell son, declare for the throne? No? So why would anyone declare for him?
                          Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
                          Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
                          One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

                          Comment


                          • My point of view, the Tyrell's wanted to be king makers and put their own on the throne.

                            So it was basically:
                            Stannis (Baretheon, but one of the weakest)
                            Renly (Tyrell and a bit of Baretheon, but definitely heavily Tyrell) - with Tyrell probably the strongest?
                            Dorne stayed out
                            Ayn stayed out (crazy)
                            Stark (not nearly strong enough) but with Tully had a reasonable force
                            Joffrey ( really Lancaster ) - lancaster might have the strongest army, but the crown is weak, and is theoretically the one attacked on all sides
                            Greyjoy (the weakest)

                            So basically, Tyrell wanted to be a power... similar to Lancaster/Stark for Robert

                            JM
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                            • Originally posted by Lord Avalon View Post
                              Well, I guess you could say lineage matters, until it doesn't.
                              Well every "king" out there was either the lord of one of the seven kingdoms or in the existing succession for the Iron Throne

                              There are no outsider rebels out there really

                              Stark has an ancient claim to be King of the North and doesn't really aspire to be more-- Joffry and Stannis are really in a succession fight as to their relationship to the deceased king etc etc.

                              But my simple point was in a land where authority for most lords comes from them being eldest, you reject an elder brother at your peril.

                              But on thinking this through, the Tyrell support for Renly was simple self-interest through both the lover connection with Loras and then them wedding the daughter-- If Renly became king the tyrells would have had a Tyrell as queen and another as lover to the king. Logic would not have entered into LOras thinking on this one

                              Oh and I misremembered-- I think Tyrion said they were the third richest house but what I am reading indicates they had the ability to raise the largest armies by far-- earlier I think I commented they had the 3rd biggest army-- and that would be incorrect
                              You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                              • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
                                I've heard similar from show watchers. I think they are just kind of ****ing up Jon Snow's story. There is a reason he is considered one of the favorite characters for book readers.
                                Yeah, John Snow's character is great but a lot of his chapters in the books are of him thinking about stuff and trying to work things out. It's hard to turn that into a TV show.
                                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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