WW2 What If?

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't look at population figures - the numbers don't tell the story. That's my point.

That's an entirely subjective assessment. Would our assessment today be the same as the British Cabinet in '41? What if Churchill's government falls in the face of the Soviet's joining the Axis?

[David Floyd]

That's an entirely subjective assessment. Would our assessment today be the same as the British Cabinet in '41? What if Churchill's government falls in the face of the Soviet's joining the Axis?

Population figures never weighed into the equation. If they did, why did the British and French seriously consider strikes against Baku in response to the Soviet invasion of Finland? For that matter, if population figures told the story, why did Britain continue the war alone after the fall of France?

[Ben Kenobi]

You mean, the nuclear engineers who concluded the atomic bomb was impossible? Sure, they're gonna have success

Folks like von Braun?

especially given the fact that the only way the Soviets built one by 1949 was through espionage. And if the Soviets are active belligerents, I think it's safe to assume they will be much less likely to conduct intelligence operations in the United States.

Sigh, the question is whether the Nazis themselves had the capacity to develop the bomb. Much of the American success is due to the folks that they managed to get from across the pond to work on the Manhattan Project. Von Braun was on the other side.

[David Floyd]

Folks like von Braun?

Werner von Braun was a rocket engineer, not a nuclear physicist.

Sigh, the question is whether the Nazis themselves had the capacity to develop the bomb. Much of the American success is due to the folks that they managed to get from across the pond to work on the Manhattan Project. Von Braun was on the other side.

Relevance? This is getting silly. First Blackcat tries to argue for a Japanese invasion of Hawaii, now you are telling me Werner von Braun could have developed an atomic bomb. Really, people, do some research.

[Ben Kenobi]

For that matter, if population figures told the story, why did Britain continue the war alone after the fall of France?

They almost didn't. One vote carried the motion.

Why do you think Lend Lease passed in Feb of '41? Britain was in trouble.

[Ben Kenobi]

Relevance? This is getting silly. First Blackcat tries to argue for a Japanese invasion of Hawaii, now you are telling me Werner von Braun could have developed an atomic bomb. Really, people, do some research.

I never said that, simply that the German scientists were not the fools you paint them out to be, and many of the nuclear scientists that did produce the bomb were of German extraction who left for America. To me that suggests that they had the capacity to devise a bomb.

[ur32212451]

Adapted from a discussion on a different forum (www.alternatehistory.com, if interested)...

Let's say that for whatever reason (not important at this point), a SuperAxis of Germany, Italy, Japan, and the Soviet Union comes together. Perhaps this is due to an aggressive Britain and France bombing Baku and invading Norway/Sweden, as was discussed, but that's flexible.

What happens? Can the Allies still win? When does the US join the war? Is the SuperAxis able to conquer Africa, the Middle East, and India?

I see no reason for Japan join such an alliance.

However, a look at WWII reveals such a similar victory was quite possible. If....

To begin with,

The Soviet Union was not needed for the axis powers to win the war. For that matter, Italy was not needed either.

Both Germany and Japan could have won their respective wars. It was pure stupidity that they did not.

Japan lost because of Pearl Harbor. They drew a sleeping giant into the war, the US, at a time when their military was spread out over a large region of Eastern Asia. The Soviet Union was too afraid to challenge Japan, particularly with mad man Hitler on their Western Front.

Germany made three major errors that cost them the war.

1. Hitler ordered his armies to stop their attack to allow the Luftwaffe to finish off the allied troops trapped at Dunkirk. Allowing roughly a half a million soldiers to cross the English Channel to England to fight against Germany for years to come.

2. Germany failed to proceed to conquer England immediately after Dunkirk. Hitler ignored his own brilliant Generals on this because England was an Aryan people who would one day will join the Germans in advancing the Human race in according to Darwinian Theory that evolution proceeds by the most evolved of a species eliminating the inferior races of a species, thereby eliminating their inferior genes from polluting the superior race of Aryans. Because of these idiotic beliefs of Hitler et. al. Great Britian became a giant Aircraft Carrier bombing German Industry and armed forces daily for years to come.

3. Ignoring England, Hitler chose to invade the USSR, Germany was sweeping through Russia in late spring and summer of 1941.

A. The initial invasion was hampered by the mud the advancing German army encountered, forcing both troops and Mechanized units to share the available roads, Significantly slowing down their advance into the USSR.

B. Winter is always severe in the USSR, but the winter of 1941-42 was among the coldest ever in historical times. The Generals requested to retreat for the winter to set up a safe line of defense and to resume the conquest of the USSR after the winter. Hitler rejected his own Generals advice to retreat. As the cold became unbearable, the generals again made request to retreat. Hitler ordered them to not retreat one single foot, that anyone retreating be shot, including any commander giving such an order. Germany suffered enormous casualties of their veteran soldiers and military weapons and tanks, the famed German 6th army was completely wiped out by the Russians at Stalingrad.

Keep in mind that Hitler had other weird science ideas other than those of Darwin, and he redirected his scientists to engage into weird science, which may have caused Germany to not make the atomic Bomb. IMO, Germany was the most advanced nation in science and technology when Hitler was rising to power.

In 1931, President Herbert Hoover almost pulled the US out of the Depression through programs he initiated. That year, President Hoover saw that the German economy was failing and that this would have a world wide impact on all economies. In response thereto, He sought France and England to cancel all war reparation debts Germany owed to them by treaty at the end of WWI, that failure to do so may lead to another worldwide economic failure. England was hedging a bit on doing so, but France refused to forgive Germany's war debt, and England followed France's lead. This led quickly to the failing of one of Europe's most important banks, the Austrian Credenstalt Bank. This quickly led to most central European Banks failing, including Germany's Banks, and this caused a Domino effect that eventually included the toppling the Frances, England's and the US Banks, and America's Banks, and the US went into a deeper Depression.

Adolf Hitler was 1st of all a mad man, and a drug addict, whose mind was deteriorating before and throughout the war. One may say that Hitler made German victory on a grand scale possible, and then he single handed lost the war for Germany.

Also in 1931-32, Herbert Hoover called again on France and England to honor their joint treaty to prevent the aggressions that led to WWI, and to immediately act jointly to bring a stop to Japan's invasion of China. His efforts came to an end when FDR became President and FDR rejected Hoover's advice on this issue. Without the U.S., France and England took no action either. They continued this policy of non-intervention as Japan and Germany swallowed up lands of foreign countries that they simply wanted.

FDR's only successes as president was his expansion of programs started by Herbet Hoover. Most of the problems we face today were started by FDR. I consider him to be our worst President ever, though Both Johnson's and Ulysses Grant were horrible. And let's give Bill Clinton an honorable mention among bad Presidents.

[David Floyd]

In other words, the British didn't end the war even when confronted with disproportionate population figures.

[David Floyd]

I never said that, simply that the German scientists were not the fools you paint them out to be, and many of the nuclear scientists that did produce the bomb were of German extraction who left for America. To me that suggests that they had the capacity to devise a bomb.

I never painted German scientists to be fools. You are the one who brought up Werner von Braun as relevant to a discussion about nuclear physics and the atomic bomb, which is clearly ridiculous.

Also, you are making a fallacious argument. The capacity to devise a rocket does not imply the capacity to develop the atomic bomb. The Nazis had neither the resources to develop the bomb nor the belief that it was even possible. Even Werner Heisenberg didn't think it was practical.

[Ben Kenobi]

In other words, the British didn't end the war even when confronted with disproportionate population figures.

No, they didn't and for that we are very thankful. It was a close shave. Also, Churchill didn't die of his heart attack in '41, either. Either of those things happen, does Germany declare war on Britain and the US? Doubtful. Does FDR shed American blood in Europe to free perfidous France? Doubtful.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also, you are making a fallacious argument. The capacity to devise a rocket does not imply the capacity to develop the atomic bomb. The Nazis had neither the resources to develop the bomb nor the belief that it was even possible. Even Werner Heisenberg didn't think it was practical.

Hans Bethe mean anything to you?

All Heisenberg said to Speer is that the bomb could be built, just not until after 1945, and that it would require significant investment.

[David Floyd]

The Soviet Union was not needed for the axis powers to win the war. For that matter, Italy was not needed either.

Both Germany and Japan could have won their respective wars. It was pure stupidity that they did not.

That statement alone is idiotic. I will still address your points, but no historian worth his credentials thinks the war was winnable by the Axis.

Japan lost because of Pearl Harbor. They drew a sleeping giant into the war, the US, at a time when their military was spread out over a large region of Eastern Asia. The Soviet Union was too afraid to challenge Japan, particularly with mad man Hitler on their Western Front.

Yes and no. The Soviets were NOT afraid to challenge Japan, and in fact Soviet ground forces in the Soviet Far Eastern Military District were superior to the Japanese Kwangtung Army at EVERY POINT during the war, including during Operation Typhoon when the Red Army was arguably at it's weakest.

1. Hitler ordered his armies to stop their attack to allow the Luftwaffe to finish off the allied troops trapped at Dunkirk. Allowing roughly a half a million soldiers to cross the English Channel to England to against fight Germany for years to come.

Destroying the BEF was not necessarily a war winner. Also, there is considerable dispute as to whether Guderian or Hitler gave this order. Even so, German panzer forces were so strung out on their supply lines that they needed a rest period before resuming the offensive, especially given the strong defensive stand put up by Alan Brooke and the British II Corps (divisional commanders Alexander and Montgomery).

2. Germany failed to proceed to conquer England immediately after Dunkirk. Hitler ignored his own brilliant Generals on this because England was an Aryan people who would one day will join the Germans in advancing the Human race in according to Darwinian Theory that evolution proceeds by the most evolved of a species eliminating the inferior races of a species, thereby eliminating their inferior genes from polluting the superior race of Aryans. Because of these idiotic beliefs of Hitler et. al. Great Britian became a giant Aircraft Carrier bombing German Industry and armed forces daily for years to come.

This is where I should just stop arguing with you idiots. Tell me how Germany can invade England. Show me the troop lift, the logistics. Just try.

3. Ignoring England, Hitler chose to invade the USSR, Germany was sweeping through Russia in late spring and summer of 1941.

A. The initial invasion was hampered by the mud the advancing German army encountered, forcing both troops and Mechanized units to share the available roads, Significantly slowing down their advance into the USSR.

B. Winter is always severe in the USSR, but the winter of 1941-42 was among the coldest ever in historical times. The Generals requested to retreat for the winter to set up a safe line of defense and to resume the conquest of the USSR after the winter. Hitler rejected his own Generals advice to retreat. As the cold became unbearable, the generals again made request to retreat. Hitler ordered them to not retreat one single foot, that anyone retreating be shot, including any commander giving such an order. Germany suffered enormous casualties of their veteran soldiers and military weapons and tanks, the famed German 6th army was completely wiped out by the Russians at Stalingrad.

You are arguing two different campaigns. In December of '41 it is well acknowledged that Hitler was RIGHT to order no retreat, and that a retreat would have turned into a rout. As for the Stalingrad campaign, had 6th Army broken out, what would have happened to the much greater German forces in the Caucasus? They would have been cut off and surrounded, is what would have happened.

Keep in mind that Hitler had other weird science ideas other than those of Darwin, and he redirected his scientists to engage into weird science, which may have caused Germany to not make the atomic Bomb. IMO, Germany was the most advanced nation in science and technology when Hitler was rising to power.

Agreed. Part of the Nazi's problem was that they were actually very anti-science.

In 1931, President Herbert Hoover almost single handedly pulled the US out of the Depression through programs he initiated. That year, Presicent Hoover saw that the German economy was tiltering, and He sought France and England to cancel all war reparation debts Germany owed to them by treaty at the end of WWI, that failure to do so may lead to another worldwide econmic failure. England was hedging a bit on doing so, but France refused to forgive Germany's war debt, and England followed France's lead. This led quickly to the failing of one of europes most important banks, the Austrian Credenstalt Bank. This quickly led to most central Euopean Banks failing, including Germany's Banks, and this caused a Domino effect toppling the French Banksm Englands Banks, and America's Banks, and the US went into a deeper Depression.

This has little to do with the OP, so I won't address it. Suffice it to say, many might disagree with you.

Adolf Hitler was 1st of all a mad man, and a drug addict, whose mind was deteriorating before and throughout the war. One may say that Hitler made german victory on a grand scale possible, and then he single handedly lost the war for Germany.

The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ couldn't have won the war for Germany. They were THAT outclassed once the US came in.

[David Floyd]

Hans Bethe mean anything to you?

You mean, a German American who worked on the Manhattan Project? What's your point? I never said GERMANS were incompetent, just NAZIS.

[Ben Kenobi]

You mean, a German American who worked on the Manhattan Project? What's your point? I never said GERMANS were incompetent, just NAZIS.

If I go pull Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" and show you where Heisenberg said that the bomb was difficult, yet was possible to produce, would you concede the point? Look, the Germans knew shortly after the Americans that the bomb was possible. It's all right there in the historical sources after fission was successfully demonstrated in '39. It's very likely that they would have produced a bomb of their own within a couple years after the Americans. Shorter, even if they didn't have to cannibalize so much men and materiel for the war against the Soviets.

[David Floyd]

Except that the Nazi leadership weren't willing to allocate resources to the project? Possibly that might have been because they didn't have the resources to allocate, and possibly because they didn't believe in it to begin with. The Nazis basically killed science in Germany. It isn't likely at all the Nazis could ever have produced a bomb, and if the Soviets only produced it in 1949 with massive espionage aid from people like Klaus Fuchs, what in the world makes you think they would get it sooner? Additionally, even getting it 1 year after the US is far, far too late, given the atomic bomb production schedule in 1945.