Wisconsin Takes A Stand For Fiscal Sanity

[Hauldren Collider]

Sorry, you're going to have to use your brain. That doesn't prove anything.

DaShi, teacher's unions are unambiguously against the interests of students. Fundamentally, teachers unions believe that schools exist to employ teachers, and even more crucially, they believe that schools exist to employ teachers who could not get employment elsewhere. If there are any that do not at some level believe this to be true then the best you can say is that this is what they achieve.

[MRT144]

Teachers rally in opposition of reform

Groups of people lobby for self interest. That you have a problem with it is puzzling as you'd likely have no problem with campaign donations as a form for free speech.

[Hauldren Collider]

Why? It's not the unions' fault the school system has the problems it does.

Sure it is. Teacher tenure prevents awful teachers from being fired. Last in first out layoffs mean that you can't lay off your least effective teachers when you need to cut staff. Teacher unions are adamantly opposed to any sort of merit-based pay and insist solely on seniority. They force young, newer, competent teachers to take lower wages so they can keep their jobs and be overpaid while underperforming. Obama says we need more teachers in this country and we need more talented people to become teachers. I can see one easy way to encourage people to become teachers, and Walker has figured it out as well.

[DaShi]

DaShi, teacher's unions are unambiguously against the interests of students. Fundamentally, teachers unions believe that schools exist to employ teachers, and even more crucially, they believe that schools exist to employ teachers who could not get employment elsewhere. If there are any that do not at some level believe this to be true then the best you can say is that this is what they achieve.

This is in their charter?

[Hauldren Collider]

Groups of people lobby for self interest. That you have a problem with it is puzzling as you'd likely have no problem with campaign donations as a form for free speech.

Government strikes do not constitute free speech. Holding the rally does, but skipping work to hold the rally does not.

[DinoDoc]

This is hilarious:

A planned state Senate vote on slashing Wisconsin public worker pensions and curbing their unions stalled Thursday after Senate Democrats apparently fled the state.

The contentious vote was postponed because the 33-member Senate must have 20 present for a quorum and not a single Democrat attended. There are only 19 Republicans so at least one Democrat must be present for the Senate to open business.

Police have been sent out to look for the wayward lawmakers, the Associated Press reported. A source said it appeared that the Democrats had boarded a bus headed for Iowa.

[DaShi]

Sure it is. Teacher tenure prevents awful teachers from being fired. Last in first out layoffs mean that you can't lay off your least effective teachers when you need to cut staff. Teacher unions are adamantly opposed to any sort of merit-based pay and insist solely on seniority. They force young, newer, competent teachers to take lower wages so they can keep their jobs and be overpaid while underperforming. Obama says we need more teachers in this country and we need more talented people to become teachers. I can see one easy way to encourage people to become teachers, and Walker has figured it out as well.

Don't delude yourself into believing that this is about removing bad teachers. Nothing in the proposals is doing anything to improve education. It's just trying to kill unions as if that a magic fix. It's the same as TMM's belief that giving more authority to state governments will magically fix all financial problems.

[DaShi]

This is hilarious:

Still waiting...

[MRT144]

DaShi, teacher's unions are unambiguously against the interests of students. Fundamentally, teachers unions believe that schools exist to employ teachers, and even more crucially, they believe that schools exist to employ teachers who could not get employment elsewhere. If there are any that do not at some level believe this to be true then the best you can say is that this is what they achieve.

Why are you holding teachers to a standard of social accountability that you would not ask for in anyone else?

"How dare those uppity teachers band together to secure an income. They should teach for the love of it alone!"

[MRT144]

Government strikes do not constitute free speech. Holding the rally does, but skipping work to hold the rally does not.

Then the governor should lock out the teachers who are going on strike.

[DinoDoc]

Which state are we talking about? It's already illegal for teachers to strike in Wisconsin.

[MRT144]

Which state are we talking about? It's already illegal for teachers to strike in Wisconsin.

It's illegal but it's happening.

[Hauldren Collider]

This is in their charter?

Since when does having something in your charter (or not having it) dictate whether or not it is a goal? Let me give you an example of a charter:

THE NORTH KOREAN CONSTITUTION (excerpt)

Article 64. The State shall effectively guarantee genuine democratic rights and liberties as well as the material and cultural well-being of all its citizens. In the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea the rights and freedom of citizens shall be amplified with the consolidation and development of the socialist system.

Article 65. Citizens enjoy equal rights in all spheres of State and public activity.

Article 66. All citizens who have reached the age of 17 have the right to elect and to be elected, irrespective of sex, race, occupation, length of residence, property status, education, party affiliation, political views or religion. Citizens serving in the armed forces also have the right to elect and to be elected. A person who has been disenfranchised by a Court decision and a person legally certified insane do not have the right to elect or to be elected.

Article 67. Citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations.

Article 68. Citizens have freedom of religious beliefs. This right is granted by approving the construction of religious buildings and the holding of religious ceremonies. Religion must not be used as a pretext for drawing in foreign forces or for harming the State and social order.

Article 69. Citizens are entitled to submit complaints and petitions. The State shall fairly investigate and deal with complaints and petitions as fixed by law.

[DaShi]

Since when does having something in your charter (or not having it) dictate whether or not it is a goal? Let me give you an example of a charter:

THE NORTH KOREAN CONSTITUTION (excerpt)

Non-sequiturs aside, what evidence do you have that these are in fact their goals. You are saying that their goal is to hire teachers that can't be hired elsewhere. That's a pretty bold statement. So I assumed that you must have some evidence to back it up.

[David Floyd]

It's also worth noting that Wisconsin faces a multi-billion ($3.6, is it?) dollar budget deficit, and that the alternative to this is just laying off thousands of public workers. The unions are going to stand up for their "rights" all the way up to the point where the union members are getting laid off.

Unless someone else has a better idea for how Wisconsin can balance the budget - and I'm all ears, but I suspect your answer will be "higher taxes" - then I think this plan is perfectly reasonable.